thanks for that link, nice to see gladiator is the best film so far for portraying the Romans in battle....i think some of the 'inaccuracy' debates were laughable like 'why are the uniforms dirty?' haha its germania, land of mud...this battle was supposed to be at the end of the huge campaign(12 years or so)....it totally broke Rome's treasury (Remember Marcus had to sell the family jewels to support the war effort) so its understandable that the troops wouldnt have had a change in underwear in a long time....<br>
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also the 'what is that, a basket?' on a siege machine, i thought was a poor effort to discredit the film...like the crusaders the Romans at this stage would have been making weapons out of anything they could find,<br>
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in all i think it will be another 20 years at least before they make a film to outdo it.. <p></p><i></i>
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Thanks for your feedback Agit8.<br>
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Personally I don't believe romans allowed big "dirtness" as presented in the movie. Yes, the reasons why the authors show all this mud is to give more dramatic sense, but we know that romans had a huge logistic system to provide also on campaign anything they need including new tunicas, new armours, etc. So while I don't believe they could change or clean their tunica each day, I believe they had a much clean look. For example why these soldiers have a so dirty scutum? They didn't use the leather cover to protect it? I believe the scutum is very important during a battle to recognize the companions so must be kept very clean. And what about the famous "shiny" loricas? It is enough a bit of mud to justify this dirtness?<br>
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About the basket on the ballista I agree with you, I posted that even if it not really pertinent....<br>
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Hey! I'm waiting for other comments like this! <p></p><i></i>
another reason why the army looks so 'dirty' is that they may have had an earlier battle that day...alot of them look very war torn(bandages, injuries etc)....also i am sure the extended version mentions that the germans had 'cut the supply line' which means no fresh undergarments or tunics etc....anyway i honestly believe the legions on the upper rhine where alot dirtier, saw a hell of alot more action and maybe even used barbaric methods of cleaning ie with dirt and urine.. <p></p><i></i>
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I avoided this thread originally because it mentioned Mr. Scott.<br>
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Matt - you might want to do a quick google search on the real Saladin - he was quite a fascinating man, and in many cases exemplified the Chivalric Ideal far better than the invading Europeans.<br>
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As an interesting side note, I was appalled years ago when Mister Hussein started to use the epithet al-Tikriti, which means 'of Tikrit', as his way of claiming some sort of fellowship with Salah al-Din (through sharing a hometown).<br>
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This is particularly appaling when you consider that Salah al-Din was a Kurd - and we al know just how well Hussein got along with the Kurds...<br>
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Sasha <p>LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
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- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS - </p><i></i>
Adam MacDonald
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One hour in the dust and mud and you are covered head to toe.. been there done that. Then the fighting begins.<br>
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The scutum covers back in camp.. walk who knows how far to set up the battle... of course they're filthing looking.. and what about the entrenchments they were milling about in? It's not like they camped on the fresh mown lawn of some public park or football pitch and strolled down the recenty rain washed, now dry, asphalt road<br>
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Bright and shiny for guarding the daughter of the Tribune's uncle's mother-in-law... sure okay.<br>
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A bit o'dirt and rust if you've been in the field for a few days.<br>
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gvd grif!<br>
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Maximus Minumus <p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
You cannot dig ditches in a toga!
[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
I still think if the base colour of the armour is "steel" not BLACK, dust and mud looks quite a bit different. Unless the romans hosed themselves down in sticky goo before a battle, you're going to have bits and pieces of armour that is still steel in colour.<br>
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Gimme a break guys, while some of you are making great excuses here, and they are certainly plausible to a point, when your armour is black in colour, it is an entirely different story. Unless they baked mud onto their armour.<br>
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Dust also doesn't cover armour to the degree shown in Gladiator. Mud dries, moving parts rub mud off, exposing the STEEL underneath, NOT BROWN OR BLACK ARMOUR!!!<br>
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GRRRRRRRR!!! <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
Agit, you need to check out some more sites or books on roman combat tactics. That entire opening battle scene was garbage.<br>
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1. Romans didn't use fire as napalm<br>
2. they didn't deploy in one or two lines, in fact, the entire roman deployment was shoddy<br>
3. they didn't couch their pila under their arms like lances, when the barbarians charged they should have tossed them.<br>
4. they tended to not take the bar room brawl approach and allow a huge melee to ensue, unless the battle goes badly for them. (Hollywood strikes again)<br>
5. Where were the auxilliaries?<br>
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You get the idea.... <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
Magnus,<br>
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Your points are well taken, and I agree -- Gladiator had more in common with Hollywood Rome than it did with Ancient Rome. In fact is was more like a World War Two film with the first battle looking like it belonged in Saving Pvt. Ryan and the Praetorians like they should have had SS lightening bolts on their uniforms, or at least entered the arena to the strains of the Darth Vader March. But I digress...<br>
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What I am curious to know is what film or films, if any, you think do the best job of depicting a Roman battle.<br>
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Spartacus?<br>
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Fall Of The Roman Empire?<br>
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Caligula?<br>
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Or...?<br>
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Inquiring minds want to know...<br>
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Hail Caesar!<br>
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Narukami <p></p><i></i>
I'm still waiting for one to come out! <p>Magnus/Matt<br>
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix"<br>
Niagara Falls, Canada</p><i></i>
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What I am curious to know is what film or films, if any, you think do the best job of depicting a Roman battle....Narukami<br>
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It'll be the one in which I choreograph the battle scenes, of course!!<br>
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Maximus Minimus <p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
You cannot dig ditches in a toga!
[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
Magnus could you recommend some great sites...<br>
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i did spot auxileries on horse back guarding the flanks...<br>
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also is there any evidence of the use of pilums as pikes?<br>
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i think the main reason why they arnt thrown is that the germans are charging downhill.. <p></p><i></i>
also there is evidence the Byzantines had a type of napalm, so there is every reason why Aurelius didnt have every technology available at his disposal....he would have to use every gadget he could get his hands on, as the plague struck and the many years of peace before hand hand rendered the legions weak and inefficient.....will the german tribes macromanni, quadi and lazyges had coalesced into a strong kingdom <p></p><i></i>
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A git 8: i think the main reason why they arnt thrown is that the germans are charging downhill..<br>
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Best time! A volley into the leading ranks, guys falling down wounded dying, shields impaled, gear and bodies as tripping hazards, the Germanii behind them not having enough time to stop, falling over each other... their entire charge slowed or stopped....imagine the lovely chaos! ...meanwhile the archers continue to shoot of course... If the Germanii mob up for a follow up charge, just as they get themselves roused up and moving toss in that second volley.. ...meanwhile the archers continue to shoot of course... then the Roman ranks advance... imagine the scene.. Romans advancing over and onto piles of dead Germanii.. neat ordered ranks..obviously something they've practiced... ...meanwhile the archers continue to shoot of course... Ol'Ridley (Ridiculus Scotus Directus) missed a great opportunity to film some brutal scenes.......meanwhile the archers continue to shoot of course...<br>
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Maximus Minimus <p></p><i></i>
Hibernicus
LEGIO IX HISPANA, USA
You cannot dig ditches in a toga!
[url:194jujcw]http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org[/url]
A nationwide club with chapters across N America
the best time to throw pila is uphill?? <p></p><i></i>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>3. they didn't couch their pila under their arms like lances, when the barbarians charged they should have tossed them. <hr><br>
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[url=http://romegiftshop.com/weightedpilum.html" target="top]When the swords wouldn't do, the Roman soldiers relied heavily on their Pilum, which was essentially a long spear (javellin). <strong>The Pilum could either be thrown, or used in hand combat.</strong> It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.[/url] <p></p><i></i>
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