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Gregg · 04-01-2004, 12:44 PM

I believe the procurator lived in Caesarea, and was only in town to nail up a few troublemakers. But as the equestrian governor of a third rate province, Pilate had a very small staff and would only have had auxiliaries at his disposal. I think it was typical for eastern cities and fortresses to be garrisoned by auxiliaries (this came up once before when we were discussing whether or not auxiliaries had artillery or not, evidence from the East suggesting they did). The legate of Syria had three legions, and could be counted on to intervene if necessary. 
 
It was a very small province, less than 100 miles north/south and 43 miles wide. But probably rather densely populated, with two good-sized urban centers (Jerusalem and Sebaste) and countless villages. Still, constant strife between Jews, Samaritans, Greeks and whoever else would have been a serious headache for any governor. The Jews alone were a very acute problem. They seemed to be going through some kind of cultural mental breakdown at that time, particularly the Jews of Jerusalem, which would have been a magnet for all the hardcore rabble-rousers and lunatics. It seems to me the Romans should have known that the governor of a province constantly teetering on the edge of religious and political upheaval required greater imperium and real military strength than the position was allocated. 
 
As far as a review of "The Passion" goes, did anyone else see South Park last night? Refreshing antidote, if you ask me. To quote Stan... 
 
"Dude, that sucked!" 
 
"That wasn't a movie, it was a snuff film!" 
 
Gregg

Gregg · 04-01-2004, 01:25 PM

A couple of things I should have mentioned in the last post... 
 
I think Pilate's actual title was Prefect, or Prefectus, and not Procurator. 
 
I forgot to mention Caesarea was also a large urban center. 
 
For the first six years of Pilate's governorship there was no legate in Syria (Tiberias was keeping him in Rome for some reason), so his access to the Syrian legions may have been limited. Pilate's feeling therefore may have been that any signs of disorder or disrupting influence in the province would have to be stamped out quickly and thoroughly, since he might not have recourse to the legions if things began to get out of hand. The Jewish authorities may have been aware of this handicap, which could be one reason why Pilate's attitude towards the Jews, and his relationship with the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem, seems so strange in the Gospels. 
 
Gregg

Vincula · 04-01-2004, 09:07 PM

Quote:<hr>what's the documentation or reasoning behind the statement that the Jerusalem Garrison would have been composed of Auxiliaries, and not Legionnaires?<hr> 
Basically, as an equestrian prefect, Pilate did not have the authority to command legionaries. 
The Acts of the Apostles mentions an "Italian cohort" in Judaea, which is thought to be a cohors Italica, not a legionary cohort.

04-01-2004, 11:12 PM

Nathan, as we're on the subject, I also remembering hearing that Nazareth as a place didn't actually exist as the time of Jesus, so must have been a later addition/re-write if he was really from there. An alternative explanation is that he was in fact a 'Nazarene'. This was a sect with the belief that a husband and wife would dedicate the first year of married life to God and refrain from sexual intercourse. Any child that came about from that year could clearly not have been from a normal union and was apparently referred to as a virgin birth. 
 
I should say that my learned brother told me that, so as sources go, it's hardly solid stone. 
 
I'm half-expecting to be told I'm off-topic quite soon. Been interesting though. 
 
Conn

NightHunter24 · 04-02-2004, 08:18 PM

Wow, that's a first of me to hear on the 'Nazarene' sect theory.

04-03-2004, 05:07 PM

I've been scanning Google for something to support what my brother told me years ago. There's a huge number of sites on Nazarenes and their beliefs, but the specific virgin birth thing I could not find. Should be treated with caution unless I can back it up somewhere. Either way, it's just a theory and I'd really hate for it to be used by someone with an axe to grind over Christianity. The problem is like the royal family - you just can't trust anyone's opinion as they all have an axe to grind. 
 
My brother is a fervent atheist. I once told him that I wished I had his faith. 
 
Conn

Frank Miranda · 04-04-2004, 04:12 AM

Quote:<hr>I've been scanning Google for something to support what my brother told me years ago.<hr> 
 
Conn- check Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh's now largely discredited 1982 bestseller Holy Blood, Holy Grail (a funny little yarn that forms most of the foundation for Dan Brown's recent hit, The Da Vinci Code). It has been many, many passages around the sun since I read HBHG, but I think I remember the authors discussing this "Jesus as a Nazarene, not of Nazareth" theory although I cannot remember how far they took it (if, indeed, that was the correct book!). There may be sources listed there. 
 
As for the OT passage of the Virgin Birth Prophecy, in case anyone is interested, it comes from the book of Isaias: 
 
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel [Isaias 7:14/DRV]. 
 
There is, of course, debate whether the Hebrew word used, almah, means "virgin" or rather "young woman" (those who argue the latter, insist that the proper Hebrew word should be bethulah). 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=frankmiranda>Frank Miranda</A> at: 4/4/04 6:18 am

04-04-2004, 07:22 PM

Thanks Frank. Your post made me remember my brother mentioning a book. That was probably it. Mind you, if it's been 'largely discredited' as you say, I'm not sure it would be worth adding to my to-read shelf. 
 
Try to imagine a cheerful smiley at that point. I can never get them to work. 
 
I did email a Christian history site about the Nazarene marriage year and they said dedicating the first year wasn't uncommon to a number of sects, but they thought the virgin birth bit was an old wives' tale. That whirring sound is Iggulden back-pedalling furiously, by the way. 
 
Conn

Frank Miranda · 04-09-2004, 04:13 AM

Conn- my curiosity got the better of me, so I pulled out my old, beaten paperback copy of HBHG and looked up the entries on the Nazarenes/Nazorites. They were very brief: to sum up, they contend that Jesus may well have been "of the Nazarenes" not "of Nazareth." They reference no sources. 
 
There is nothing in there about the status of Nazareth (at least, not in the index, and I didn't feel like reading the whole thing again- I've read enough fiction this week already). But I know that I have read that somewhere- just can't remember where!

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 04-09-2004, 11:10 AM

We all know how great were and are Jesus, the Christians in general, and the catholic priests in detail, as marketing men. Oh guys, they really rocked (and rock now)! 
BTW, Did you know that the best communication university in the world is in the vatican city? And any people who like to become a great adman and marketing man try to study there? 
Anyway I was once more surprised by the "tempest" caused by Mel's "Passion", it's a real marketing masterwork. Two years ago, here in Rome, none in the movie bussiness, should have bet a single cent on that movie success, they saw a bloody result. But now, chapeaux! It is a so "perfect" operation that I cannot believe that it's all just from Mel's, and I cannot believe that that guy be so lucky... While I admit that they are always the best in propaganda fide..., my compliments. 
 
Valete, 
Titus

04-09-2004, 10:35 PM

I saw the film at last tonight and found it extraordinarily moving. I suspect a lot of people who call themselves Christian won't like to be reminded of the original story and what they avoid thinking about in their normal lives. Maybe they will even think of the film as propaganda, though I have to say, there wasn't a single moment that jarred with me, from my memory of the new testament. Instead, I watched it almost as a child, remembering words I have ignored while I walk a path pursuing comfort and wealth. It is uncomfortable to be reminded. 
 
It was not a violent film, in the sense of gratuitous violence. Being shown the details of such a death was horrific at times, but seeing it made me ashamed of how venal and small most of life is in comparison. Of course it was justified. In fact, other film versions glossed over suffering that was central to the event. If Mel Gibson does nothing else with his life, this would be enough. 
 
There have always been those too willing to despise piety and faith. I have seen many who seek to justify their lives by attacking the core of Christianity. They will hate this film and adopt a lofty, urban sophistication to discuss it. Let them have their empty sneers. This film is gold. 
 
Conn Iggulden

Vincula · 04-12-2004, 03:32 PM

Quote:<hr>I also remembering hearing that Nazareth as a place didn't actually exist as the time of Jesus, so must have been a later addition/re-write if he was really from there<hr> 
Where did this theory come from? 
Are you maybe thinking of the conflict between Matthew and Luke as to Jesus' home town? (Matthew says Bethlehem, Luke says Nazareth.)

04-12-2004, 10:23 PM

I should know better than to actually write half-remembered theories from twenty years ago. 'My brother told me' is not the sort of evidence you usually find on this site. That said, it may be true, but it's one of a number of suspect theories that may well originate with those who seek to undermine Christianity. Now I sound like a conspiracy theorist, of course, so I'm just going to stop. 
 
Conn

**Robert Vermaat** · 04-13-2004, 06:49 AM

Undermine Christianity? Well, how about supporting your local martyrs? Have you heard of the 'latest thing - wearing the True Nails of the Cross around your neck! 
 
I picked this up from the internet: 
 
(QUOTE)______________________________ 
These are very fine, long, thick nails. Ideal suited to be worn as pendant on your necklace. A real believer wears THE nail these days. Crosses are out. 
 
Crucifixion Nails hanging right over your chest they remind you with the certainty of your hearbeat how they pierced slowly and blood-drippingly through Jesus palm's, cramping under the hammer blows. 
 
------------------------------------------------------ 
Ideal tool to nail someone to death, in case you don't know how it's done real well, just watch THE movie with ... passion. 
You can also kill yourself and sacrifice your own life for the sins of mankind, if you inner Christ takes over. 
 
Also suited to play out your sado-masochist phantasies with them, if those are your true desires. 
 
I don't know, how much they are on ebay right now, but I would invest immediately. I am sure they rise to heaven in price, holy as they are. 
 
Do you see what I see? 
 
Religious hysteria, ritual murders, gang mass torture, self sacrifice, Gibson's Romans running amock in US suburbia. 
 
I am sure we all meet in hell. Fortunately God knows what he is doing. See you there. 
(END QUOTE)__________________________________ 
 
Gripping stuff, eh? 
 
<img src="http://www.sharethepassionofthechrist.com/images/637955044010sm.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.sharethepassionofthechrist.com/images/637955813050sm.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <img src="http://www.passionofthecross.com/images/nail.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Apparently, Christ tattoos are 'in' as well (with the text "My Father"). This is not a joke, but it makes a bundle for those who happen to make these nails! 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 4/13/04 9:40 am

Vincula · 04-13-2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:<hr>I should know better than to actually write half-remembered theories from twenty years ago.<hr> 
Don't beat yourself up. 
There is some controversy over this -- seemingly Nazareth isn't mentioned outside of biblical sources until the fourth century. (But I'm not sure this is enough to deny its very existence! )

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