Thermopylae:Advance!

[Arthes]

Chatroom
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I missed everybody earlier......

[Johnny Shumate]

If I remember correctly, Thucydides mentions a unit of Athenian horsearchers. I would assume these were not Scythian...
Johnny

[Anonymous]

If I remember correctly, Thucydides mentions a unit of Athenian horsearchers. I would assume these were not Scythian...
Johnny

Why, Johnny? Horse archery requires special skill in horsemanship and in archery, so I would immediately assume it was the province of specialist troops. I thought the general view was that the Greeks made good, but not outstanding, cavalry until the reforms of Philip and Alexander.

Our friend often refers to the Scythian forces as slaves and bases some of his arguments on that premise, but I was under the impression they were mercenaries - a very different matter.

[hoplite14gr]

Actually I said "might" which means that I was arguing like Paul Klos that winning a contest adds prestige and increase chances for public office.
Skythians on pottery appear and after the time of Peisistratos.
Yes they were employed as policemen. But Athens was in ruins before Platea.
As a state resource this slaves would be commited to the war effort and when the city was back in order they would return to their normal duties.
Ancient Greeks made the distinction beteween DOYLOS=intenured servant and ANDRAPODON= slave (literaly "walking thing").

Parnitha free Athenian herders were more likely to serve as slingers/javelineers. Only Cretan mercenaries were distinct as archers but Cretans stay neutral at the Persian Wars.
Parnitha herders of some note would also serve as hoplites sporting the white boar of the Poimenidae clans on their shields.

The horse archers of the Athenians might be Skythians but there was also Thracian light horse using bows so they cannot be ruled out in my opinion.
I feel though that Skythians might be more likely. The extent of Athenian trade network was enought ot allow thme choice between mercenaries or bought slaves.

Kind regards

[conon394]

hoplite14gr

I just cannot agree with what I see as your underlying premise that if not Cretan any archer must be not Greek.

Parnitha free Athenian herders were more likely to serve as slingers/javelineers

Only if you assume the large bodies of Athenian arches must be not Athenian…
What about Herodotus (3.45.4) Polycrates has a large number of Samain archers?
If Samos can have citizen archers, why not Athens as well?

s a state resource this slaves would be committed to the war effort and when the city was back in order they would return to their normal duties.

But the problem is the literary evidence puts them rather later than Plataea,

Ancient Greeks made the distinction beteween DOYLOS=intenured servant and ANDRAPODON= slave (literaly "walking thing").

I don’t question the difference between state slaves and slaves held by individuals but the Scythians are clearly not mercenaries but state slave or bonded servants or what have you.

Yes The Scythian/Persian/Asian/Amazon Archer motif does continue on Attic vases after 500 BC but more typically as the enemy of Athens or as retainers in a heroic context.
But again what does a vase motif really show, the battle-axe is well represented on Attic vases as well (particularly in mixed Amazon images featuring Amazon hoplites and axe wielding troops), but as far as I know the Athenians are never suggested as fielding a mixed spear phalanx and axe armed infantry force.


Paulaallen

Why not? (With respect to Athenian horse archers)

Athenian citizens are defiantly attested as serving in the body -
Lysias (15.6) is clear on that. However the very fact that the horse archers were replaced with the prodromoi suggests you may be right; maybe you just could not train enough good Athenian horse archers.

[Anonymous]

hoplite14gr

IPaulaallen

Why not? (With respect to Athenian horse archers)

Athenian citizens are defiantly attested as serving in the body -
Lysias (15.6) is clear on that. However the very fact that the horse archers were replaced with the prodromoi suggests you may be right; maybe you just could not train enough good Athenian horse archers.

That'll be why not, then!

Historically, horse archers have tended to be racial groups, developing the necessary skills as a way of life, rather than as special military training; I just can't see part-timers making it. At least, not in an environment in which they might meet the real thing.

You say Athenian citizens are definitely attested as serving in the body - I'll take your (and Lysias! ) word for that. By "the body", presumably you mean the horsed archers, rather than the cavalry in general?

[hoplite14gr]

The link was given by Cristina I think.
http://www.classics.und.ac.za/projects/ ... plites.htm
First image is dated possibly to "Marathon" time.
Second image is dated to "Platea" time.
I did not suggest that every non Cretan archer was foreign.
Greeks had let their archery skills decline. It was unwillingly recognized among the Greeks that Skythian and Persian archers were better.
Most archers of Polycrates could well be Samian But 100 Pentikontoroi means minimum 5000 rowers. If Epivate (marines) were also employed then a sizable contignent of foreign archers would also be likely.
He was a tyrant and a pirate too. Some times a sizable contignent of non local mercenaries (Cretans or non-Greeks) could be useful.
Kind regards