Advice needed about water flask

[Tarbicus]

I need some advice and hoping someone could point out any flaws in my plan. Does anyone think this would be suitable for a Roman impression, or is it just dead wrong?

It's actually based on a find from the Mary Rose, but has the following construction:

Hand made; 10-11 ounce vegetable/bark tanned leather; Sand moulded and sealed on the outside; Inside coated with brewer's pitch; Holds 500ml of cold liquid; Wood stopper. The strap is adjustable, so I assume it has a buckle which could be easily changed.



I'm looking for something other than a metal or ceramic canteen, and thought this could be a possibility aside from the Saddler's Den leather one.

Thanks.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Something like this?
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/components ... uxnew1.jpg

[Tarbicus]

That's a nice one, thanks Faventianus.

Anyone else got any reasons why the one I posted would be a disaster on my hip?

[Carlton Bach]

I've been looking for original sources to support these for ages (because I know how to make them), but so far I've come up empty. That isn't evidence of absence, of course. Wax-hardened leather doesn't survive very well under most circumstances and we have barely a handful such flasks surviving from the later middle ages when they were common enpough that a specialised craft existed for making them. So using one for a Roman is going to require more of a hop of faith than a leap, but purists may call you out on it.

(that said, plenty of Roman soldiers today wear beltpouches, and there is absolutely no evidence for those, either, and good reasons against)

If you want to be sure of getting it right, use a flexible waterskin instead. There is ample evidence for those, and originals were found. Unfortunately, I don't know where to get them and I can't make them.

[Tarbicus]

Hey Carlton, thanks for the response.

For flexible waterskins try these two:
shayrebel medieval water bottle kit

Saddler's Den Roman waterskin


I think I'll be taking a hop of faith. Besides, Peronis has one, so he can take the heat from purists with me :wink: Reasons why are simple: The only surviving art I've seen of a round ceramic canteen's use is in the baths being carried next to a strygil, therefore Okkam's Razor says it's used for oil (any more examples would be appreciated). Flexible waterskins are a definite possibility, common sense says so.

But, the hard leather round type is just so predominant in medieval times, and this strikes me as being a course representation of the very same flask from the 7th C, found in my neck of the woods, the Wirral peninsula:

A pilgrim's flask from the shrine of Saint Menas in Egypt
Chester Timeline - Roman Dark Age

It's Roman, or as near as damn it can get, and given the scarcity (if not absence) of ceramic canteen finds in the UK it's a safer bet for me to go with the hardened leather type. I'm waiting for a reply from the makers of the first flask I posted to see if they will supply the strap without the medieval metalwork, describing why:
Leather Lore Bottells

I just feel flexible leather skins are too fragile to be carried next to armour and sharp pointy bits. With water in it's heavy and will conform around the armour and equipment to snag on pretty much anything that could puncture it. Perhaps for casual non-military use, yes it's fine. The last thing you want on the march is to lose your water supply like that. Doesn't make sense.

Addendum: I just realised, having never seen it, that pilgrim's flask from Egypt in the Chester museum may not be a representation but the actual thing. Anyone have any more information?

[Caballo]

Hi

Another thought (also coming with research from Peronis) is a reproduction of this grass padded clay canteen found in the Mazarron Roman mines, in Spain.

Venetian Cat (also on the RAT market place) has these at http://venetiancat.com/Price-List.html (scroll down).
Pic at http://venetiancat.com/Canteen-Net.jpg
The hard clay would prevent puncture from armour etc; the padding would prevent the clay being broken by bumps etc; sounds eminently practical.
Haven't seen one, but looks good to me. If only they had a UK distributor....

Cheers

Caballo

[Caballo]

Ooops- forgot to post the link to the Marketplace discussion on Roman canteens http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=1495

Cheers

Caballo

[Carlton Bach]

For flexible waterskins try these two:

Saddler's Den Roman waterskin

'..constructed around' a plastic bag? Hey, I can do that! That's practically cheating :wink: The hard bit is getting the leather seams watertight.

I think I'll be taking a hop of faith. Besides, Peronis has one, so he can take the heat from purists with me :wink: Reasons why are simple: The only surviving art I've seen of a round ceramic canteen's use is in the baths being carried next to a strygil, therefore Okkam's Razor says it's used for oil (any more examples would be appreciated). Flexible waterskins are a definite possibility, common sense says so.

I'll probably do the same. I really don't buy the universal 'metal canteen'.

I just feel flexible leather skins are too fragile to be carried next to armour and sharp pointy bits. With water in it's heavy and will conform around the armour and equipment to snag on pretty much anything that could puncture it. Perhaps for casual non-military use, yes it's fine. The last thing you want on the march is to lose your water supply like that. Doesn't make sense.

I don't know. Leather is pretty durable. I'll hae to give it a try one of these days. Right now, I'm making flasks for a bunch of friends, but this summer I'll get back to trying skins, and if putting a plastic bag in is fair - I know someone who can make me a wooden neck-and-stopper set. Sounds like a good question to get answered.

[Tarbicus]

I really don't buy the universal 'metal canteen'.

Me neither. Lined with pitch would protect it from rust, but not forever. A hardened leather one lined with pitch or wax seems much more sensible and a better long term investment.

I don't know. Leather is pretty durable.

Do you mean that for flexible waterskins? Maybe, but somehow the whole hardened leather type just screams at me to be the logical choice. The Romans knew how to shape and make these things I'm sure.

Turns out the Saint Menas flask is an actual flask not a representation, and there are loads of them around. But they could be only 2.5" wide, or thereabouts.

[Tarbicus]

Here's another leather medieval flask:
Limerick City Museum. Found here: Historiska varldars forum

But here's one that is more ancient than Rome itself:

Egypt, New Kingdom, mid-Dynasty 18, late in the reign of Tuthmosis III to the early reign of Amenhotep III, 1479-1353 BC
Imitation Leather Flask
1479-1353 BC
The Amica Library

So, there are examples of hardened leather flasks, it seems, hundreds of years either side of the Western Roman period. Did they just disappear in the meantime?

Also a reference to ancient Jewish leather flasks for transporting olive oil, but may be waterskins (although there does seem to be a difference between flask and skin):
The issues concerning the transport of kosher vegetable oils from global ports is as real today as it was in Nebuchadnetzer’s court . The wooden cask, clay jug and leather flask have been replaced with 55 gallon drums, 5 gallon tins and plastic bottles.
Bayamim Hahem Bazman Hazeh: Olive Oil: The Contemporary Industry of Antiquity

[tlclark]

A pilgrim's flask from the shrine of Saint Menas in Egypt
Chester Timeline - Roman Dark Age

Addendum: I just realised, having never seen it, that pilgrim's flask from Egypt in the Chester museum may not be a representation but the actual thing. Anyone have any more information?

We have quite a few of these posted over here:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=6149

Julia's willing to make them if we get enough people on board. She has a ceramic sigillata canteen for sale already.

About the possibility of ceramic canteens: Seems logical, but considering the pilgrimage flasks have been preserved in abundance, why not the canteens? It may be the flasks were preserved for the religious value. A canteen is not a special object and merits not special protection.

About the possibility of hardened leather canteens: Well you know I'M all for hardened leather stuff!

Unfortunately the evidence is nil.

Let me know how you solve this.

[Tarbicus]

About the possibility of hardened leather canteens: Well you know I'M all for hardened leather stuff! Very Happy

Unfortunately the evidence is nil.

I've read the thread, and know of Julia's great repros, but that's not the point now.

I think the Egyptian hard (looks it anyway, it's certainly not a waterskin and the 'handle' does a pretty good job of staying upright by itself) leather flask above pretty much says "Yes, they existed even before Roman times!" As the Romans took Egypt, and plenty of evidence comes from Egypt, I feel justified in using one of those hardened leather flasks.

As I said, I can't see how such a container would disappear for more than two millenia, only to reappear in medieval times. With such a flask, according to one modern maker, if it takes a blow from a sword all you have to do is warm it in the sun and remould to get its shape back. If a ceramic canteen or particularly a waterskin took a blow I think the resulting explosion of liquid could be pretty spectacular :wink:

If I did go for a waterskin, however, then it would be something like this:


Leather helps keep water, milk and wine fresh. Ceramic seems more suitable for oil, as well as metal.

[FAVENTIANVS]

(that said, plenty of Roman soldiers today wear beltpouches, and there is absolutely no evidence for those, either, and good reasons against)

Which ones?

[Tarbicus]

This type, I think:

[FAVENTIANVS]

What about those ones?:
http://geocities.com/ivarmaelstrom/pourse.jpg