Roman religious practices and the Catholic Mass

[Andy De Cusati]

Hi Folks,

I have seen postings regarding Roman religious practices and ceremonies here on this site. I was wondering if the people who know about these practices and ceremonies could tell me if anything in the Roman Catholic Mass mirrors the old pagen rituals. I know that when Christianity became the religion of Rome a lot of things were adjusted to suit christian beliefs. I was just wondering if any of the pagen Roman ceremonies are still around.

I was not sure where to post this. I have only seen the postings I mentioned above in the Military History section. To be honest I have never looked at the Civilian section. Please pardon me if I have made a mistake in posting this question here.

Andy De Cusati

[Robert Vermaat]

I was not sure where to post this. I have only seen the postings I mentioned above in the Military History section. To be honest I have never looked at the Civilian section.

Still, that's where it has to be moved.

[Andy De Cusati]

Thank you Robert. :oops:

[flavia]

Hi I do know that incensing the altar , the huge candlesticks,some of the priests robes as well( the names of the differant parts of the robes) the design of the churches,(basilicas) and I have heard even some of the old latin greetings of the people at mass were supposed to have come from the Roman's and some even have said that the vestal virgins were the precursors of nuns. I was born a catholic and am familiar with the practices. Flavia aka Carolina

[Comerus Gallus]

...

[Theodosius the Great]

I would dispute that any pagan rituals were incorporated into the Latin Mass. What Comerus mentions above in his post about "Egypt, Babylonians, Assyrians..." pagan ceremonies- they may share minute similarities but they are NOT adaptations.

As far as superficial things like forms and clothing : yes, what we would call today "ecclesiastical robes" are just late Roman civilian garb. The Church just never changed and so the popular misconception is that they are specially designed "religious" or "ceremonial" robes.

Architecture - same thing - the basilica was an early Roman archectectual style designed originally for secular government uses - never as pagan temples.

Rituals and ceremonies - again, there are absolutely none now or have ever been contained within the RC mass. A word of caution : many authors hostile to the RCC have published books in recent years that claim the contrary to be true. Some Catholics in good standing with the RCC have published their own books to debunk these allegations. So, a good general rule : BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU READ

MODERATORS : Please check the RAT guidelines because this topic is probably inconsistent with official RAT rules and has the potential of turning into something really ugly.




Theo

[Comerus Gallus]

....

[Susanna]

Do you have bad experiences concerning that theme, Theodosius?
I can understand...

There are a lot of similarities!

But, because every cult/religion (to be objective, I have to call Christianity also a cult) created its own rituals to be unique/ do different things then other cults. But they also took similarities, because people already knew them to make it easier for them to understand and to practise.

If they are "god-given" is normally a theme that follows up fast, because Christianity/Catholic is still "in use/belived" today. So I can understand that this theme is discussed not very objective often.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave omnes,

this discussion unintentionally might offend someone, so here are my two quadrans to avoid boiling blood:

What might be a philosophical or simple academic for a non-believer of a religion often is very real to the believer. ‘Faith’ will mean ‘reality’ to the special person. So let’s beware of ‘it was just a thought of mine’ – quick shots.

I feel I should point this out, because I’ve read too much discussion in even more than one pure Christian internet forum, ending up in Roman Catholic-bashing or somewhat virtual religious wars…

So throwing in keywords or stereotypes won’t help. The ‘unbelievers’ won’t notice that but discussions often are very crude. Translated to ‘RAT’ discussions, it’s like I would write a post, starting: ‘Oh, I know serious re-enacment is always the same’ and then go on listing Legio XX, Hollywood’s Gladiator, village fairs, Mardi Gras and Fantasy live role playing all together in the same sentence hock: :lol: :wink:

Please stick to the historical details. If someone sees a similarity of ancient cults and Christianity, show the plain evidence. Serious historians, ancient sources and photographs of original finds are recommended.

Personally, I’m a protestant Christian, but not interested in any ‘modern’ theology here at RAT. In contrary, I like to find out how ancient Christians lived, especially in the first and second century. I want to learn about their faith, experiences. environment and acts, but only from their ancient point of view and at RAT’s high discussion level.

Or in terms of CSI Gill Grissom: “The evidence will tell the storyâ€

[Theodosius the Great]

Discussing similarities is not what this thread is about. The problem with this thread is that it asks the question : what pagan rituals survive in the RC Mass ? The answer is : none, because there never were any in the first place.

What many of you Europeans may not know is that in this country there have been some books written in recent years by anti-Catholics who claim that the Latin Mass is nothing more than an amalgamation of pagan rituals that the church papered over to make it appear Christian - the sick joke being that the RCC fooled everyone and Catholics are actually practicing paganism , "ha ha ha!" No doubt if you believe this you're a big fan of the "Da Vinci Code." Even more of this garbage can be found on the web.

First of all, it's not only untrue but also offensive. The RCC strongly rejects their claims. Catholic scholars and even a mainstream Protestant have come out with their own books refuting their claims point by point with historical evidence.

(If you don't believe what I'm saying, just "google" in these words : Roman Catholic Mass, paganism - and the first twenty matchings you'll get are almost exclusively anti-Catholic websites that claim the Mass is nothing but disguised paganism. The rest are Catholic websites that refute their claims.)

I don't mind discussing similarities between some pagan rituals and some rituals of the Catholic Mass. But if someone is going to imply that "this" is really "that" dressed up as "this" because the church was run by crypto-pagans, then I'm going to call you out on that. The RCC neither incorporated NOR adapted any pagan rituals or ceremonies into the Mass.

Sure, there are similarities - there are similar rituals between many other religions. But the Church did not adapt any specific pagan rituals into the Mass.

And it's legitimate to point out that certain holidays were replaced by Christian ones, that ecclesiastical garb and the basilica have Roman origins, etc..

But, please, everyone be careful with what you say and how you say it (assuming this thread survives the scrutiny of the moderators.)

Andy (who started this thread) most likely didn't ask his question out of malice but out of genuine curiousity. It sounds like he's heard some misleading information, but hopefully we can set him straight with some factual information.

If you want some good info on the Mass you can get it from the official Catholic Encylopedia here : [url:3pv7fj2t]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09790b.htm[/url]

It talks about the Mass' origins and its evolution into its present form.

Theo

[Robert Vermaat]

But, because every cult/religion (to be objective, I have to call Christianity also a cult) created its own rituals to be unique/ do different things then other cults.

Susanna, calling Christianity a cult can be offensive to many people. Here the definition of a cult:
"a cult is a cohesive group of people (often a relatively small and recently founded religious movement) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be far outside the mainstream. Its separate status may come about either due to its novel belief system, because of its idiosyncratic practices or because it opposes the interests of the mainstream culture."
Since Christianity is now nearly 2000 years old, I think you see that it no longer falls under that definition. Christianity is a religion.

Further, I agree with Heiko. We will (under the current rules of this forum) not discuss modern religion in terms of 'you are wrong to believe that or this'because I believe so and so'.
IF you think you have arguments about, say, the origins of rituals in early Christianity, then discuss them with arguments based on fact. That's not a request, that implementing the rules. Siorry folks, but we've had troubles in the past weeks about modern religion and we're determined to moderate this so that no more feelings are hurt. Discuss the subject but discuss facts and arguments. Use references, not sentences like: 'I know this happened', or: 'I believe so or so'.
Those who nonetheles feel offended, friendly confront those who did, it may have been unintentional. OK?

I count on your cooperation to keep this a non-offensive and productive discussion!

[Susanna]

I wrote cult/RELIGION and in Early Christianity it was a cult. Later it became a religion inside this 2000 years.

You are right. :wink:

And...I never raed the "Da Vinci Code" or anything like it, because I do not fancy "Fiction Romans", exept Star Trek.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Discussing similarities is not what this thread is about. The problem with this thread is that it asks the question : what pagan rituals survive in the RC Mass ?

Ave Theo,

you're right. A discussion about similarities of different cults/religions to christianity in a special period might be okay. But no conclusions or comments about recent religions or special churches, like the RCC.

What many of you Europeans may not know is that in this country there have been some books written in recent years by anti-Catholics who claim that the Latin Mass is nothing more than an amalgamation of pagan rituals that the church papered over to make it appear Christian - the sick joke being that the RCC fooled everyone and Catholics are actually practicing paganism

That's the point. Perhaps the origin of that kind of books is more known in Europe, than you suppose... Even old Alexander Hislop from 1858 (!) is still being reprinted. Therefore even as a protestant, I don't like anything basing on 'conspiracy' theories and pseudo-scientific texts…

We will (under the current rules of this forum) not discuss modern religion in terms of 'you are wrong to believe that or this'because I believe so and so'.
IF you think you have arguments about, say, the origins of rituals in early Christianity, then discuss them with arguments based on fact. That's not a request, that implementing the rules. Siorry folks, but we've had troubles in the past weeks about modern religion and we're determined to moderate this so that no more feelings are hurt. Discuss the subject but discuss facts and arguments. Use references, not sentences like: 'I know this happened', or: 'I believe so or so'.
Those who nonetheles feel offended, friendly confront those who did, it may have been unintentional. OK?

I count on your cooperation to keep this a non-offensive and productive discussion!

Thanks, Robert!
Similarities might be subject of discussion, because some Christian titles, ceremonies, clothing or offices/functions are not mentioned word-for-word in the bible. So it might be interesting to know the origin of terms and whether they were common terms in their period of time or special ones connected to a unique background. But discussion should be restricted until about 500 AD and to the view and understanding of the ancient people. (So even calling something a ‘cult’, ‘faith’ or a ‘religion’ may depend on the special target group. Average ancient Romans or Christians might have had a very different point of view on that topic :wink: ). Meaning of terms also is changing though the times and our modern way of understanding or using it might be very different. (Peter Connolly for example writes, our well known keyword ‘lorica segmentata’ was no Roman name hock: – see Rome and Greece at War, p 321)…

[JRSCline]

I think the original question is whether there are any aspects of the present-day Catholic Mass that reflect aspects of previous pagan practices.

Unfortunately for the question, at RAT we just don't talk about modern religion, because inevitably, someone becomes offended. In this case, Theo is annoyed at a direct connection being made between pagan rituals and his own faith practices. Many modern-day Christians do not like having such things shoved in their faces, even if a linkage could be shown.

It's like suggesting to a modern-day pagan that his faith is directly connected to druids who practiced rituals of human sacrifice. There is evidence for such things happening in ancient days, but what does it really have to do with modern paganism? Or consider polygamy, an original part of the Mormon fathers' faith practice, which has since been abandoned. Religions evolve as cultural sensibilities change, and old practices are left behind. Ancient pagan religions may have used "smells and bells", but that does not make them Catholic today.

Anyway, now speaking an as Admin, it is an interesting question, but since it pertains to modern religious practices, the thread is probably not appropriate. The issue will therefore be put to the staff and reviewed before a final decision is concluded.

The thread has a better chance of survival if it turns back to the early Christian (Catholic) church and how the ritual practices of the ancient Church were connected to pagan religions of their contemporary era. Does anyone have any insight into this?

[Andy De Cusati]

Dear Friends at RAT. Thank you for all the responses to my question. I am sorry to see the strife it has caused as that was not my intent. I was raised in the Catholic faith. I remember when I was younger hearing some people say that the church just took Roman practices and changed them to Christian so the Roman people would more easily adapted to it. I wondered if anything that was "adapted " was still around. Of course, I never stopped to consider that what I was told was in error. That was my mistake. I also feel I must say that I am a Baptist in faith but being raised Catholic I still have many questions about the history of the faith. Please pardon my unthoughtfulness in the wording of my question. In the future I will stick to military topics.
Thank you all.

Andy De cusati