Roman horses

[Arthes]

As for human sizes, it is generally thought to be a myth that people were smaller in the distant past than they are now. Analysis of Roman-period cemeteries suggests that the male population was little different in average height to the recent past, although the British population has allegedly started to get bigger in the last few decades for some unknown reason.

Caballo pointed out in another thread that recent southern Italian male sizes don't seem to be much different at all to, for example, the Herculaneum or Pompeii remains.

I need to rethink that whole armour size thing :?

But, I'm sure I've read reports that put the average in ancient Europe as smaller. I've posted links here on RAT. :? ?

The average height of a male Viking was around 5'7" to 5'8" I think, with the female being around 5'4" which is virtually the same as the modern average height over here...
During the Middle Ages, people were definitely shorter, possibly due to the Feudel system imposed by the Normans and the taking of the woodlands and forests by Royalty and landowners, leaving the ordinary folk without the ability to hunt or collect extra fruit, roots and berries etc .
That combined with taxes in the form of livestock or harvests probably had an impact on succesive generations, who would have been malnourished in comparison.
Those drawings you see of Medieval workers with bowed backs were not simply to show their humbleness, many did actually did suffer from curviture of the spine and that would also give the impression of a smaller height..
The Black Death in the mid 14th century was probably not helped by the malnourishment and insanitry conditions that the town and city folk were living in either..
I don't know how much genetics would have influenced the height changes....the Normans having Norse blood would not have been that short, although the Bretons may have averaged slightly shorter...maybe the tall Gauls and others had already left for better climes, leaving the shorties behind.... :lol:
Intrestingly, In my family, four succesive female generations have increased by around an inch in height....
regards
Arthes

[RUBICON]

Greetings Deb,

Doing dressage I take my hat off to you...beautiful! As for polo, at 6 ft 1, trying to stay on such small polo ponies I feel I am riding a slippery pole!

This is why I commend the riders of our ancient past...to have ridden such small ponies at the gallop, while holding spears, archery & shields with no stirrups! amazing!

My team of horses range from 16.3HH - 17.3HH showjumpers. I cannot imagine sitting in line on 14 HH ponies awaiting the enemy.

[hoplite14gr]

The Cavalry of Lukulus could have contained the horses describes here:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ek+cavalry
Certainly these breeds were available to the Roamans after 146 B.C.
Hope it helps.
Kind regards

[bachmat66]

hello,
I would like address these statements as I am very greatly interested in the ancient warhorse etc

the domestication of the horse first took place in the Near East around 3000 BC.

You mean Southwestern Asia? Any authority on that? – via your research etc, because what you say it does contradict Anthony and the Russian, Ukrainian and other Central Asian research regarding horse domestication on the Eurasian Steppe, namely 4000BC Eurasian steppe where first true spoked wheels chariot-like vehicles have been found -
http://www.hartwick.edu/x6723.xml
http://users.hartwick.edu/iaes/horseback/index.html

The Arabian horses we now know of we're bred in the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, etc.) from the 8th Century AD. Before that time there were probably Barb horses, but that still doesn't explain why the Arabian horses differ so much in skeleton (i.e. they have 17 ribs instead of 18 ) from all other breeds in the world.

well actually that is not uniformly true - some Arabians do have 5 lumbar vertebrae and some do not, the same is true with other old breeds – eg. Spanish Colonial horse in the Americas aka the Prior Mountains or Kriger Mountains or Cerbat herds of mustangs in US. It seems to prove that these equines come from some ancient stock (Central Asian or Ukrainian tarpan most likely) but because they do have long croup and short back (actually Arabians seem to have the longest croup of all domestic breeds)and that they are superb riding animals with strong bodies.

The Equus Caballus Libycus according to findings in Newstead dating from 1st Century BC has the well known Arabian 'dish' in his head and might as well be a forefather of the Egyptian/African Arabian horse or a Barb horse. These horses were found in a Roman army camp in England.

Barb or Berber horse has had no dish in his face but rather a so called Roman Nose or even a straight profile. But this dished profile could mean two things
a- that some Newstead units came all the way from the east off of the Roman World bringing with them Caspian horse
b- this horse was the so called ancient Numidian (bred there since the Bronze Age) whose conformation later had been changed via intensive breeding and importation during the Islamic era.. In such case this skeleton does represent a rarity and is a treasure of the ancient horse husbandry

I am not an insider to Arabian horses but there are many different strains of Arabs around. The original Arab horse is called Asil, but in Iraq they call the original Arab Khamsa. The Northafrican tribes did not possess Khamsa in the 7th Century AD. Probably the Polish, French, Russian Arabians which are used as race and showhorses nowadays came from imported Arabians and have not much to do with this more original breed of desert-Arabians. By the way, the French Arabians used on the track look much like Thoroughbreds and story goes that at some point in recent history Thoroughbreds have been used to make these Arabians speedier.

Well, that is interesting – they did keep very careful breeding books in Poland (also early Polish buyers bought Arabians for other European royal breeders especially one aristocrat name count Rzewuski ) since late 18th century and all their Arabians came from Syria and Arab Peninsula interior, thus they were true asil horses. While it is true that the type that predominates in Polish Arabians is Koheilan, perhaps due to the ravages of teh Russian Revolution and Soviet-Nazi destruction.
While it is true that the Arabians changed in appearance while bred in Central Europe, for they became more beautiful and larger, but that happened because of careful breeding that sought to produce a specific conformation of the Arabian horse there' and also because of the milder climate, more nutritious feed and lack of intensive use - racing young animals for a year or two does not seem to be comparable with the exhausting use of the desert raids and raiding warfare of the Arabs.

There are also people who say the Iberian breeds were the origins of the Northafrican Barb horses which travelled back to Spain with the Moors in 7th century AD and were 'discovered again' then.
Annelies

Well, the genetic charts by Gus Cochran do explain a lot, and also at this website info as the owners -Deb Bennett - does open some eyes, so to speak. http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_ ... alian.html
http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/origin.html
Also do consider this – Numidians rode very fine, light horses (perhaps the Namibian desert horses resemble them in conformation as per their lithe and slick bodies adopted to the harsh desert environment) of very ancient stock -see above (question of small horse versus pony seems to me to have been best finalized in Germany where horses below 115cm at withers are ponies, above are just small horses – like famous Caspian breed that seems to have been the ancestor of the Arabian horse along with the ancient Numidian ) that allowed them to become very formidable cavalry during the Republic and Empire; later on, 5th century AD the Central Asian Alans attached to the Germanic Wandals conquered the whole Roman Africa – influx of Central Asian/steppe horses into North Africa. Later on, during the early 6th century AD we find that Berber tribal troops rode ... camels, not horses while fighting for the Belisarius against the Wandals. Simplifying it a lot , took Arab conquest to bring back horses to the Berbers - the horses of Egypt and the Syrian-Persian desert with their Roman Nose and that influx of various breeds for ever changed the ancient Numidian horse in North Africa.
sorry for this longish posting
Dario