Helmet Lining

[Tarbicus]

What images are you looking at for the 3rd rivet positioning? In Antike Helme the side photo (right side) of the original actually shows the Deepeeka depth to be almost spot on. The top of the occipital ridges are in line with the front rim on the Deepeeka and only minimally higher (milimetres) on the original, the third rivet is placed adjacent to the high part of the second occipital ridge just like the Deepeeka, and all seems to be pretty accurate and not even a half inch out. The beauty of the Antike Helme photo is the lens is a long focal length with minimal camera distortion. The join to the neckguard even starts in line with the bottom of the brass strip at the top of the cheekguard. I'm literally looking at both the original's photo and the new Deepeeka on my desk as I type this.

However, this is very off-topic now so should go to the appropriate thread in Marketplace/Deepeeka.

[FAVENTIANVS]

http://armae.com/Actualitesetmanuels/Casque/helmet.htm

[Gaius Germanicus]

Ivan -- Thank you for posting the Armae link on liner construction , I'll make one using their pattern and see how it turns out...

[Gaius Germanicus]

Jim- Thank you again for your reply and info and the photo I had been looking at was I believe the most recent photo of the corrected reproduction D taken at its side as well as its back.

I compared it to a picture of the original at its side and its back in which the ear guard length aka back length appears much deeper in the repro..
The difference in length of the front edge and bottom edge of the back is greater in the reproduction.. Its easier to see if you ignore all the brass work and just concentrate on the steel skull itself.

I was looking at the original Italic D and if you look at the main body of the skull under the brass work it is almost designed like a skull cap w/ ear cutouts in which the rear is only slightly deeper then the front rather like the Italic C

That is one of the reasons I am wondering if Dan is correct when he says that the back depth is an important feature on this , I do not know but would like to hear opinions to better learn about this helmet


You are right that this post is diverging from the original post about helmet liner construction so I will try to move our posts to the Deepeks Italic D post where it would be proper..

[Gaius Germanicus]

Jim - I moved our posts to the Deepeka section under the Italic D post

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Faventianvs,
Thanks for your link on the helmet padding.
That's one of the better solutions I've seen
that's easy to make. A laudes for you.

[FAVENTIANVS]

Thanx!

[Poftim]

Avete!

There is a description of two soldiers getting water from a well by lowering in one's helmet padding to soak up the water. But the expression used for the lining apparently best translates as "wad of rags"! So I'd say No, nothing standardized. Probably they cut up last month's tunic for lining, socks, subarmalis, cleaning rags...

Matthew

Matthew,
Do you know, offhand, who wrote that account?

[Matthew Amt]

Ack, shoulda guessed someone would nail me for a reference! Sorry, no idea at this point. Mind like a steel sieve... But there are a few human encyclopedias on this board who probably have the answer. Help, folks?

Matthew

[Caballo]

Ammianus, IIRC. Away from my books at the moment so I can't give the full ref.

Cheers

Caballo

[Poftim]

NEVERMIND, I was way off.

Also, I remember Vegetius complaining (as usual) that the soldiers didn't wear their helmets any more, not even their leather caps. Maybe it was a leather cap they wore to protect them from getting cut and rags to make it fit? Didn't they wera a Pannonian(?) hat in the Middle Ages?

[Robert Vermaat]

Here's the quote with the Loeb translation:

Ammianus Marcellinus, Res Gestae XIX.8.8:

And since the heat had caused us parching thirst, for a long time we went slowly about looking for water. And we fortunately found a deep well, but it was neither possible to go down into it because of its depth, nor were there ropes at hand; so taught by extreme need, we cut the linen garments in which we were clad into long strips and from them made a great rope. To the extreme end of this we tied the cap which one of us wore under his helmet, and when this was let down by the rope and sucked up the water after the manner of a sponge, it readily quenched the thirst by which we were tormented.

et quia per aestum arida siti reptantes aquam diu quaeritando profundum bene vidimus puteum et neque descendendi prae altitudine nec restium aderat copia, necessitate docente postrema indumenta lintea, quibus tegebamur, in oblongos discidimus pannulos, unde explicato fune ingenti centonem, quem sub galea unus ferebat e nostris, ultimae aptavimus summitati, qui per funem coniectus aquasque hauriens ad peniculi modum facile sitim, qua hauriebamur, extinxit

Also, I remember Vegetius complaining (as usual) that the soldiers didn't wear their helmets any more, not even their leather caps. Maybe it was a leather cap they wore to protect them from getting cut and rags to make it fit? Didn't they wera a Pannonian(?) hat in the Middle Ages?

Vegetius does not seem to know what he's talking about.
The cap was most probably the felt cap worn inside the helmet, not the pilleus pannonicus which would not fit inside a helmet and does not well function as a shock absorder either.

[pvblivs cordvs]

Hi all,
as a form of test I started wearing inside my helmet a Phrygian cap, like the one Mithras has.
It's made of felt, quite warm when worn without the helmet but quite absorbent when worn inside the helmet.
Actually it gets soaked with sweat when standing in the sun with a bearskin on your helmet but that is in fact not too uncomfortable since the retained sweat cools the head.
The upturned sides of the hat make the helmet fit quite snugly onto my head while the "nose" of the hat keeps the helmet more or less "floating" over my head giving a very good protection, much like the netting inside a modern helmet. That nose is, by the way, filled with a wad of unfelted wool which on occasion needs some fluffing. Or replacing when it itself has turned to felt, which takes nearly six months.
It was my own idea to make and test this and it has been copied by Leg II AVG, most of whom now wear it standard inside their helmets. Allthough not all of their nose-cones have the correct size, thus reducing its comfort.
It may all in all not be confirmed as historically correct but it is confirmed that people knew it (plenty of images of Mithras around); did not think it silly ( allthough I know some people who refuse to wear it without a helmet because of its Smurf or garden-gnome appearance) but it is a historic and more probable option than most liners around.
I do have a picture of course but I am reluctant to post it since it's a pretty large picture (645 kB) and I don't know the maximum possible on RAT.
If anyone wonders, I do welcome comments.
Cheers,
Wim / Cordvs

[M. Demetrius]

Hey, don't be too hard on the garden gnomes...they got that idea from somewhere, y'know?

I guess the people who sneer at the Phrygian cap also think it's not manly to wear a tunic without biker shorts?

[Mark Headlee]

Guys,

Is there any patterns or documentation for this cap. Being that I want to do this right (as possible) it would be a shame to make a modern type lining for my soon to arrive Gallic H to only find out the cap is the correct way to go....

Thanks,