Crests as a defense!

[M. Demetrius]

Some of my ancestors are Scot-Irish, so I guess it goes with the territory.

Genetics. Canna doo withoot 'em, eh?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hey there Dave!
Some of mine are too! Scots/Irish,Russian/German American on my mothers side, Greek on my Dad's! Guess thats what makes me such a sweet dispositioned person!
Mind you being Canadian means I'm always right too! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Guess I'll carry on with the final draft of my new book!
How to make friends and influence people!
Sorry, you can delete this post if you want Jasper, I guess finaly getting back to work is bringing out my (even) Dumber side! hock: :oops:

Anyway, now I must go Adios amigos,

Have a good holiday one and all!

[drsrob]

Just going by what a British soldier told me! :wink: I'll tell him he was full of S@#T then, shall I? I personally think it has merit to the idea! The crest is an additional barrier! (and of course has the sadded visual impact!) If the scutum saves you from everything, why bother with a helmet and armour at all? Just run around naked like the Gauls! :lol:

Have a good one!

I have read other romantic stories about the origin of various peculiarities circulating in the British Army.
The practice of The Royal Horse Guards to salute even when bare-headed for instance. It is said to derive from a commanding officer reporting from a succesful charge without hat (or whig). Actually about 1900 the RHG were late in recieving the new field caps and for a time went bare-headed in camp.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Sure, a crest will add to a helmet's protection, but that's not its *purpose*. It's there to look good, which is indeed important in an ancient battle.

And you're sure of this... how???? Not to be a dick, but where says it this?

If they'd wanted something on the helmet which was primarily protective, they could simply have used something like the 2nd century AD crossed braces, eh?

Grabbing someone's crest means having to put away or drop your own weapon, probably drop if it's a spear. Not my first choice of tactics! And if you get behind the guy, why not just hit him?

Uh Matt, aren't you the one who always says the Romans did things their own way and in a fashion we would find alien... :-0

[Tarbicus]

I have read other romantic stories about the origin of various peculiarities circulating in the British Army.
The practice of The Royal Horse Guards to salute even when bare-headed ....

That doesn't preclude horsehair plumes or crests from having a practical defensive application, but just says there was a different reason for the RHG saluting when bareheaded. My own feeling on centurion crests being first and foremost a visual sign are the feather crests and possible hair moss one. IIRC, we also do have mention in primary sources that feathers and plumes atop of helmets gave the legionaries a taller and more frightening look. That still doesn't mean the plumes couldn't have an added advantage in combat.

[Caballo]

A long crest or a braid could also whip around a sword and hold it back?

I was once sparring with a far more skilled opponent and made the mistake of having my leather drawstring pouch on the sword side of the belt. Moved my spatha back, and suddenly I'm completely tangled up. Had he realised my predicament, I'd have been slammed....!

Cheers

Caballo

[drsrob]

I have read other romantic stories about the origin of various peculiarities circulating in the British Army.
The practice of The Royal Horse Guards to salute even when bare-headed ....

That doesn't preclude horsehair plumes or crests from having a practical defensive application, but just says there was a different reason for the RHG saluting when bareheaded. [...]

Well, it does show that you should be wary of accepting the traditional explanations for the adoptions of certain parts of tradition and dress at face value.

[marsvigilia]

Since modern soldiers do not actually face sword attacks, I am rather suspicious of the wisdom thus imparted. In so far as swords go, modern soldiers are essentially reenactors as well.

If we really want to know if a horse's tail offers real protection against a sword blow, we should try it. I personally doubt it has much of an effect. On the other hand I was wrong once before.

However, if hair were really that useful at deflecting blows, I would have expected soldiers to wear full hair coats with hoods over their armor and helmets rather than just a pompadore on steroids

[Caius Fabius]

If you read the narratives of people who participated in the Charge of the Heavy Brigade in the Baklava Valley / Saupone Valley, this was modern cavalry combat with swords. The helmets, crests and heavy overcoats prevented many fatal injuries, according to those narratives, on both the Russian and British accounts. Most of the wounds were either thrusts, or wounds to the face. I'd have to dig the books out of a box in storage, but the casualties reported were minimal, since almost no black powder weapons were used, and both sides were dressed in heavy uniforms, the British with helmets and crests, the Russians with Shakos with oilskin covers. The British had several people wounded in the arms and torsos, since they were not wearing their overcoats and the Russians had some lances. The Russian's overcoats protected them from many of the British saber slashes.

One or two of the British narratives mention that the horsehair crest stopped the Russian blow to their head from being hard enough to do damage....

[drsrob]

If you read the narratives of people who participated in the Charge of the Heavy Brigade in the Baklava Valley / Saupone Valley, this was modern cavalry combat with swords. [...]

One or two of the British narratives mention that the horsehair crest stopped the Russian blow to their head from being hard enough to do damage....

Unfortunately - as far as I know - the British cavalry disembarked wearing their full dress with headgear sans plumes etc. That meant that the helmets of the Heavies were without plumes.

[A_Volpe]

Makes me think of the Napoleonic Hussars - with the long side-braids (and sideburns/muttonchops) apparently to help prevent a sidewards-cut to the face, this before the helmets evolved chinstraps/sides with brass scale plates

I *think* this was mentioned in the movie "The Duelists"? - the two main characters start off as Hussars, with braids and all - But it's been a long time since I've seen it, I'm probably misquoting.

[Caius Fabius]

Unfortunately - as far as I know - the British cavalry disembarked wearing their full dress with headgear sans plumes etc. That meant that the helmets of the Heavies were without plumes.

I can only go by what the participants wrote, I wasn't there, contrary to rumor. Most of the Heavy Brigade did not come with the original disembarkation, and there were regular naval supply runs, usually (according to people who were there) of stuff the soldiers didn't really need. After the new year, maybe I will have time to dig out the photographs and see if any of the photos show crests, but even so, that would not show if they had them during the charge, (which was delivered mostly at a fast walk).

[Primitivus]

I have read other romantic stories about the origin of various peculiarities circulating in the British Army.
The practice of The Royal Horse Guards to salute even when bare-headed for instance. It is said to derive from a commanding officer reporting from a succesful charge without hat (or whig). Actually about 1900 the RHG were late in recieving the new field caps and for a time went bare-headed in camp.

Reminds me of when I was stationed at RAF Greenham Common. Crossing a parking lot near headquarters one day, I saluted the British Wing Commander. (We had a U.S. Wing Commander there also.) The British commander was rather embarrassed when I saluted, because he had simply run out to his car and not worn his "cover." He informed me that he could not return the salute, since he wasn't wearing his cap.

In the United States military, I was taught that the salute is simply a formal greeting--initiated by the subordinate service member as a sign of respect. As a greeting, salutes can even be rendered (1) between people of equal rank and (2) when one or both individuals are wearing civilian attire.

[M. Demetrius]

Well, here in Texas, we civilians frequently salute by touching our hat or cap brims. Just normal daily stuff. But it has nothing to do with helmet crests...although it does harken back to horsehair days, you might say.
Yep.

[Gallus Marinus Micarius]

I participate in the notorious SCA sport combat groups (yes I can hear the sighs and moans now..). I fight as an ancient greek with a steel helm with a horsehair crest and leather crest box....and I have to tell you that it really upsets some opponents, since it cushions so much of the blunt force impact of a blow that I can't even detect that one even landed. The blow I'm referring to is a rattan sword thrown at my cranium at maximum velocity with the intent to do bodily harm. Normally a blow like that on a steel helm would easily be felt, heard (loud ringing) and followed up by a fast submission on the part of the dizzy recipient. Yippee crestas!

Micarius