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Hi Plebs.
Today Hungarian linguistic says, the Hungarian language 5000 years old. Incomming from Mezopotamia. The linguistic in his opinion, there would be no language problem 1000 years before was lived with I.Saint István king. We need little to focus on. That sure. The Hunnish, avarian, scythian, many celtic tribes was talking, original MAG-HAR /MAGYAR/-sumerian language, from OLD ORIENT. Source: He lived about the 13th century: Kézai Simon - Gesta Hungarorum.
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István,
Simon of Keza's "Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum", and the earlier "Gesta Hungarorum" by an anonymous author nearly a century before Simon, are hardly sources you can use to prove this.
(For those who read this and wonder what the hell this is about, these two "Gestas" provide origin stories for the Magyar people and the foundation of the Hungarian state that formed the basis of Hungarian political mythology until modern times. Basically, it claims kinship between the Huns - descended from Hunor, supposedly a son of Nimrod, great-grandson of Noah and ruler of much of Mesopotamia in Jewish tradition - and the Magyars, descended from Hunor's brother Magor. Simplistic etymologies like this were quite common, like deriving Rome from Romulus, Britons from Brutus, and more recently in the Netherlands, Vlissingen from Ulysses. Ulyssingen, get it? Other examples are linking the Isle of Wight with the probably purely fictive chieftain Wihtgar - we know that the Roman name of the island was "Vecchis". And there are more examples, ad nauseam).
The idea of Sumerian origins was launched in the 19th century, to give the Magyars a more glorious past than that of the Germans, Greeks, Romans, Slavs and others. It certainly sounded better than having been proven to be linguistic relatives of the Finno-Ugric peoples of eastern and northeastern Europe. As one Magyar critic of this inconvenient, but well-rpoven theory claimed, "Es stinkt nach Fischtran!", "It stinks of fish oil".  hock: Being descended from the Sumerians and warlike mounted aristocrats from the steppe is so much cooler.
Of Janos Gyarmathyi (1751-1830), one of the Hungarian scholars who proved the kinship between the Finnish languages and Hungarian, it is said that in his obituary "he was said to have done his country a greater service by having introduced two strains of potato than by having demonstrated beyond any doubt that Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and numerous minor tongues spoken in the depths of Russia were related." 
In the end, historical linguistics incontrovertibly proved "the Finnish connection", and built up a picture of the Finno-Ugric language family. But ever since the 19th century, certain strains of Hungarian nationalists have been claiming more glorious antecedents for the Magyar tongue, stressing ties with the Turkish languages and falling for the "Turanianist" fallacy, the idea of a vast linguistic community originating in the distant past and encompassing such languages and peoples as diverse as the Hungarians, Finns, Turks, Sumerians, Cimmerians, Scythians, Huns, Japanese and Koreans.
Unfortunately, these are nothing but chimeras! What actual evidence we have about the Cimmerians and Scythians points towards them having been Iranian speakers; we don't really know what language, or to be more precise, languages the Huns spoke (in Europe, at least, a lot of their warriors must've spoken Germanic, being Goths and Gepids and so on...). As for ties with the Japanese and Koreans, that depends on whether there's any truth in the controversial "Altaic" language theory (the idea that Turkic, Tungusic, Mongol, Korean and Japanese languages are descended from a common linguistic ancestor). Even if there's something in Altaic, that still doesn't include the Finno-Ugric languages.
And as for Sumerian...
The fact that it's a so-called "agglutinative" language doesn't mean a thing. That refers to a feature of the language, and is not necessarily an indicator of kinship with Hungarian, Turkish or any other language. The Bantu languages are also agglutinative, and Africa is widely considered to be the first home of anatomically modern humans. However, I doubt any self-respecting Hungarian "Turanianist/Sumerianist" will claim that the Magyars are therefore of Bantu descent... 8) The Aboriginal languages of Australia are also agglutinative, as are at least some of those of the Papuas of New Guinea. The ancestors of the Aboriginals and the Papuas are widely believed to have arrived in Australia before the first Cro-Magnons arrived in Europe. Yet, once again, I doubt claims will be made that Magyars are connected to the Aboriginals or Papuas...
As an aside, earlier 19th century ideas about agglutinative languages being related to certain Asian (Turkish etc.) languages cast doubt in that racist age on the proper European credentials of Finnish-speaking peoples; even today, some Finns are sensitive about this, and the discrimination of Lapps was apparently justified by claiming Asiatic links for them. On the Hungarian side, "Sumerian" and "Turaniast" claims were and are linked not just with "mere" nationalists, but with extreme right-wing groups, just as they are in Turkey. :evil:
Taken to extremes, these ideas really become "out of this world"; go to this site, watch the videoclip and read the claims that are made...
[url:1wxi0sg4]http://www.goldlibrary.com/moricz.html[/url]
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Wow, Andreas, you have really studied these things hock: !
In fact you have reminded me again of those outrageous and hilarious theories about finnish origins! In fact "The Kalevala" is really an interesting national epic. If I remember right Tolkien was quite familiar the Kalevala epic?
A finnish scholar Kalevi Wiik has proposed recently the idea that finnish lanquage might have been the "linqua franca" (dominant lanquage, loosely tranaslated) of the north european population just after the ice-age...
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Quote:Wow, Andreas, you have really studied these things hock: !
Well, actually I have a weak spot for outrageous claims concerning ancient history and the abuse of scientific disciplines like linguistics and genetics. The nonsense you can find these days, left, right, and under the bed. As a guy named Mark Rosenfelder, dealing with this stuff, once "wrote"Some days it's not worth getting out of bed." :wink:
Quote:In fact you have reminded me again of those outrageous and hilarious theories about finnish origins! In fact "The Kalevala" is really an interesting national epic. If I remember right Tolkien was quite familiar the Kalevala epic?
Yes he was, Finnish is one of the main linguistic influences on one of his constructed languages, though I can't recall which one exactly. He was quite fond of Finnish, and I kinda like the sound of it too. Got all the Varttina CDs at home 8) and some other Finfolk as well...
Quote:A finnish scholar Kalevi Wiik has proposed recently the idea that finnish lanquage might have been the "linqua franca" (dominant lanquage, loosely tranaslated) of the north european population just after the ice-age...
...and he got pounded by his colleagues in Finland and abroad for his claims. I think I somewhere saw a map of Europe with little Finnish flags all over the place...I have to say, if he uses terms like "Basque" for the pre-Indo-European languages of western Europe he is, indeed, way out of line. In fact, we don't know if the largely unknown pre-Indo-European languages of western Europe were even related to Basque, except in a very distant sense. For instance, what little is known of Iberian, Ligurian, Raetian and Etruscan doesn't point in the direction of Basque.
And a look at the linguistic situation on the island of New Guinea may provide a salutary warning: that island has been inhabited for somewhere between 40,000 and 60,000 years, which is somewhat longer than the presence of Cro-Magnons in Europe but still in the same order of magnitude. Now, the island is swarming with hundreds of languages and many different language families, many of them no longer recognisably related. Such a situation may very well have prevailed in Europe as well; the somewhat shorter time-depth easily compensated for by the greater size of Europe. While not a linguist, what I do know seems to suggest that the consensus theory - that the Finno-Ugric languages spread relatively recently - is probably right.
Of course, Wiik and his supporters did get a share of fame by more or less shouting out his ideas in the popular press. Something that, in combination with the wild extent of his claims and apparently somewhat questionable methodology irritated his colleagues tremendously. I even read that a massive protest on their part played a role in denying him getting a prestigious Finnish prize.
As for making outrageous linguistic claims flattering to the national ego, Finns and Hungarians aren't alone. In fact, one of the first (maybe even THE first - I am not quite sure) nations to produce this kind of nonsense were...the Dutch! Or to be more precise, the Belgo-Dutch.
In the 16th century, the Dutch physician and early amateur linguist Johannes Goropius Becanus (in ordinary Dutch: Jan Gorp from Hilvarenbeek), from the Duchy of Brabant claimed that German / Dutch (Dutch was originally referred to as either "German" or "Low German"), to be specific, the dialect of his own Brabant (how surprising...) must have been the original language of mankind. You can see his portrait down here:
![[Image: Goropius.JPG]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/67/Goropius.JPG)
Since I'm a lazy bum, I will now quote the article in Wikipedia:
[quote]Goropius theorized that Antwerpian Flemish, or Brabantic, spoken in the region between the Scheldt and Meuse Rivers, was the original language spoken in Paradise. Goropius believed that the most ancient language on Earth would be the simplest language, and that the simplest language would contain mostly short words. Since the number of short words is higher in Brabantic than it is in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, Goropius reasoned that it was the older language.
A corollary of this theory was that all languages derived ultimately from Brabantic. The Latin word for “oak,â€
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Is this because of the relation between the Finnish and The Sami languages? (Btw, these are at least four different languages in Scandinavia. Samoied samien, Northen samien, Lule samien and Souhtern samien).
I have heard theories about that before and I have no dout the Sami people or proto-sami cultures inhabeted the Scandinavian penninsula and the Kola-peninsula and Finland a long time ago (don´t wanna say how long but before agriculture reached the area).
But what is the argument for the Finnish to be the dominant language in her theory?
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Quote:Virilis:xb9xoyng Wrote:In fact you have reminded me again of those outrageous and hilarious theories about finnish origins! In fact "The Kalevala" is really an interesting national epic. If I remember right Tolkien was quite familiar the Kalevala epic?
Yes he was, Finnish is one of the main linguistic influences on one of his constructed languages, though I can't recall which one exactly. He was quite fond of Finnish, and I kinda like the sound of it too. Got all the Varttina CDs at home 8) and some other Finfolk as well...
It was the Quenia of the Noldorin and Vanyar (Highelfs)
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Andreas, you really know what you are talking about  ! This question of Kalevi Wiik claiming that finnish lanquage might have had a major role in the north after the ice age is quite valid in my opinion. It is not merely trying to find "a greater role in the past" for us finns, it might as well be pure inter-disciplinary science (genetics giving new light to the dominant role of linquistics) trying to modernize of some concepts about our past?
Btw, "Värttinä" is charasteristically eastern musical tradition of Finland. We "Tavastians" (Hämäläiset) have a more slow and gloomier approach to things :wink: ...
Martin, this might shed some light to the question you made (especially the map 3?):
http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/bff/399/wiik.html
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Quote:Martin, this might shed some light to the question you made (especially the map 3?):
http://www.lib.helsinki.fi/bff/399/wiik.html
Mmm... There is maybe some truth but I can´t take it seroiously when the author write :
Quote:It should be said that the genetically unusual Sami population of northern Norway (who, during the Ice Age, lived considerably further to the south on the North Sea continent), belonged, according to my hypothesis, to the periglacial zone whose languages, at least partially, unified. The unusual genetic quality of these Sami is based on the fact that they had for a long time (perhaps from about 10,000 to 3,000BC) been isolated in western and northern Norway from other northern Europeans, and a series of genetic mutations took place in them.
This is not correct! The Sami populates most of Norge, Northern half of Sverige, Northern half of Suomi, and the Kola Peninsula. Genetically more than 25% of the poulation in Sverige has one or more Sami ancestor.
Again a proof of the danger of mixing Language studies with genetics and nationalism!
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Quote:Again a proof of the danger of mixing Language studies with genetics and nationalism!
Perhaps, I am no expert on the Sami people :wink: !
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Hi Jyrki,
The connection made between genetics and linguistics, however, is one of the main objections made by Kaleva's colleagues. The genetic kinship between Finns and other North Europeans is interesting, but the conclusion is, by itself, not that surprising. Anyway, I suspect we need a lot of additional research to figure it all out.
The real problem is the *connection* between linguistics and genetics. We know that there is often a correlation, but because genes are inherited and language is acquired, it is extremely foolhardy to assume a 1:1 correspondence. I don't know if you have followed the discussion about the "coming of the English", but this is a case where there is a fair amount of historical, linguistic and genetic evidence, yet many questions and lots of controversies remain. If that's so in a relatively well-researched case with a fair amount of available evidence, how in Mithras' name can one draw conclusions from even deeper prehistory?
Without actual evidence about the languages spoken in Fennoscandia in the distant past - say, a travel report including lots of names of places and people written by an intrepid Early Dynastic Egyptian explorer, or better still, a time machine - we can only guess. The distant past then becomes a mirror in which we see what we want to see, and what's worse, if publicised in this manner it becomes a part of popular mythology. Yet another fantasy that somebody will have to disabuse the public of... 
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Yes, I agree with you wholly Andreas! Then again in the past the swedish speaking minority ruling in Finland used the "Uralian origins" of the finns as a base of their racist control of the major population.
This may come as a shock to many people but due to the 4% population of swedish speaking people here (of which most are bi-linqual, speaking swedish and finnish) the whole population ARE FORCED TO LEARN SWEDISH in school! You can imagine how most of the population hate that!
The reason is simply that due to the colonial history the swedish speaking minority are the elite here financially ...
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Though it helped you a bit in your sale of an helmet! :roll: :wink:
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Don't fret. The alternative would have been Russian... :wink:
Ask your Estonian cousins about the delights of Russification... 8)
There are bad colonialists and there are really bad colonialists...ask the Guanches. Oops, silly of me...there are no more Guanches. How about the Tasmanians? Darn, they're gone as well...
But, as a former victim of vile Spanish Imperialist colonialism, I sympathise with the plight of the Finns!
[size=75:2omw9stp](now let's not get into details about Dutch colonialist excesses, the slave trade or the 500,000 dead of the Atjeh War. Really, we're harmless and cuddly!:mrgreen: [/size]
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Quote:Though it helped you a bit in your sale of an helmet!
Martin, naturligtvis, jag vet vad du menar. HJÄLMEN! :wink: !
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Hallo All.
Magyar-Hun words
ló - lú -horse
kutya - kutha, - dog
oroszlán - singa, - lion
tigris - sira, - Tiger
hal - kala, - 'Fish.'
madár általában - márti, - Bird
sas - sas, - Eagle
ölyv - hülie, - hawk
bika - büka, - Bull
ökör - bajla, - young bull
tehén - inke, - cow
farkas - jugra, - Wolf
róka - vüla, - fox
teve - tüve, - camel
juh - hovi, - Sheep
egér - csucsa, - mouse
patkány - racsa, - rat
majom - majmun, - monkey
disznó - tonzu, - pig
béka - beka, - frog
csalogány - bulbül, - nightingale
kÃgyó - kila,gyÃk - klik, - Snake
sárkány - vom. - dragon
Növények: Plants
erdõ - vanta, - wood
alma - alma, - apple
árpa - árpa, - Barley
fa - fa(a?)va, - Tree
falevél - zize, zezi, - leaf
tõ - tüvi, - plant
fû - fövi, - grass
dió - dzs(cs?)ijágh, - walnuts
virág - viragh, - flower
rügy, hajtás - csüma. - burst the plant
Élettelen természet: lifeless natural
kõ - kevi, - Stone
szikla - karra, - Rock
réz - vase, - metal
tûz - teszth, - fire
láng - tes, - Flame
jég - jéj, - Ice.
hó - hava, - snow
szél - szele, - Wind
só - sava, sós (savas? savanyú?) - savesi, - Salty
kút - kutu, - FOUNTAIN
por - poura, - Powder
szemét, üledék, szar - sara, - Shit.
Társadalom: society
város, település - urr, - york
falu - kügü, - village
ország, uralom - urruságh, - state
út - utu, - Road.
ház - laka, - hause
kapu - kapu, - door
vár, erõdÃtmény - vara, - fort
fal - bata, - wall
birtok - ker, - Estate
had(sereg) - hada, - army
szó, beszéd - szava, - word
kincs - küncse, - Treasure
vásár - vásár, - market day.
ének - jenekh, - song
õr - wuri. - Guard
Szerszámok, fegyverek: Tools, Weapons
fegyver - pegüveri, - weapon
kard - szurr, - sword
sarló - sarlagh, - Sickles
pajzs - vapa, - Shield
lándzsa - bara, - Lances
Ãj - viju, - bow
nyil - neil, - arrow
tegez - thegisz, - quiver of arrows
kés - saku, szaku, - Knives.
buzogány - tumba, - battleclub.
balta - balta, - Axes
kapa - taka, - Hoes
sisak - sisak, - helmet
ágy - gaja, üst - hüsti,. - bed
Italok: Beverages
ital - hümild, - drink
bor - bor, - Wine.
tea - csaj. - tee
Ételek: foods
étel - hetild, - food
hús - kisjú, - meat
zsÃr, vaj? faggyú? - voje, - Animal fats
tojás - moni, -egg
étkezés - pala. - Food and drinks
Vallus István <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=" " title="Very Happy" />
A sagittis Hungarorum, libera nos Domine
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