Scientist compares Roman and Japanese swords with new method

[Tarbicus]

unfortunately in the west people do not adhere to their martial past in a very responsible manner, nor do they seem to remember, or want to remember....

Memory is a highly subjective process. Given that it's centuries ago that these fabled Japanese swords were being made, is it not possible that they are remembered in such a way to make them better than they actually were? If the processes for making them were written down, step-by-step, then okay. But if the process has been handed down through generations, then there can surely be no guarantee that what is known today is an accurate measure of the process of old, and could be simple 'nostalgia' which in the meantime has undergone improvements over time which are simply assumed to be the age old way?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

In case of Nihonto, the processes have been handed down written, step by step.

The appreciation of such swords, as wel as the quality and sharpness/polish have been maintained for hundreds of years by the same families, such as there are the Honami clan and countless others.

Of course a present day sword (gendaito/shinsakuto) may vary or even outclass some of the older blades still in existence, however many variations in iron ore existed.

Every Nihonto is a unique piece, and no two Nihonto are the exactly the same.

This cannot be said though about the factory made swords of the WWII period.

but in western society, a ceremonial sabre/sword of a more modern age is substantially different than one which was made in 1600 or earlier.

M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

Ah, okay!! hehehehehe

As a Nihonto buff i must disagree with the statements concerning ancient swords, or even later swords being better than japanese ones......

Okay, but perhaps we should be reminded of the original post:

German scientist Mäder from the Kokugakuin University in Tokio who has been doing research for years on European and Japanese sword making techniques has analysed a Roman spatha and several early medieval Alemanni swords with a method he has learned from a Japanese swordsmiths called 'Kantei'....

...He comes to the conclusion that, contrary to a popular belief which helds early European blades in less favour than, say, the renowned Japanese swords, early European swordmaking was by no means backward. Mäder plans now to analyse further swords in cooperation with Empa, a Swiss-based institute for the material research.

[Magnus]

I think also they're really, REALLY...I mean REALLY hard to compare the two. The designs for the most part are quite different. Even if you want to compare 18th century cavalry sabers...sure, the blade shape is similar, but the blade geometries are different, as are the handle assemblies and how they are wielded. I don't think euro swords or any sword should ever be overshadowed by any other culture's weapon, because if it didn't work in war, they wouldn't have kept using them.

Hype is only as valid as there are people who believe in it I guess.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hollywood has done more to propel the myth of Japanese swords than the swords themselves.

name the films..........

there have been NO good Japanese samurai films ever been made by anyone in Hollywood........

M.VIB.M.

Kill Bill not count then? :twisted:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I was wondering if it was possible to bend a samurai sword so the tip is by the handle and then have it spring back to shape again? As you can with a good quality saber?

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The sword will break.

Its composition is not made to bend it all the way to the hilt, nor is it its function...

The sword must be sturdy enough to parry blows, bend enough to not break immediately upon impact, and the good sabre you speak about has none of the qualities of a nihon-to.

the Japanese sword is a tool to slice through your opponent, not stab like a rapier or hack like a sabre....

its build up is so much different to any bendable and therefore weaker steel
that you can hardly compare the two.

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

But you can stab with the sabre and not have it snap or yanked out of your hand as you charge past a target.... :wink:

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

According to the German fencing Master Liechtenauer (14th century) there are 3 so-called wonders of the European sword: cut, thrust and slice. a Medieval European sword is in the first place a cut-weapon, then thrust and then slice. A Japanese sword is a slice and thurst weapon. Because of these different views, the weapons are different and hard to compare. Futhermore, after the 16th century, European swords were rapidly replaced with muskets.

I practice Medieval European martial arts and IMO an European sword is a far more complex weapon then a katana in handeling. An European sword may not be as sharp as a katana but is as lethal as a katana.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

thats true.......

Japanese swords are not difficult to handle, but are difficult to handle with absolute precision because it has a mental part to it which cannot be forgotten.

the European swords are more complex, and comparing them is very very difficult indeed.

M.VIB.M.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I would agree there.
But I would also imagine there is a fair bit of mental application required to use a sword of any type with the skill required to make the most of it's particular attributes and strengths...

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

oh yes in European fighting there also is a mental aspect however i have never seen a proper Zen attitude about swords in Europe...

Europeans saw the sword as a tool.

Japanese Samurai saw it as their soul and purpouse.

M.VIB.M.

[Narukami]

Hollywood has done more to propel the myth of Japanese swords than the swords themselves.

name the films..........

there have been NO good Japanese samurai films ever been made by anyone in Hollywood........

M.VIB.M.

Kill Bill not count then? :twisted:

Now how did I miss this!?!

Come now Marcus, I like abusing Hollywood as much as the next guy, but you paint with too broad a brush.

I do think Ghost Dog an excellent film that does capture the spirit of the best Samurai films.

I would also point out that some of the very best samurai films from Japan were made by Akira Kurosawa who was castigated by his fellow Japanese for being too "western" in his approach to both story telling and cinematic art. What some of his fellow directors and critics seeming failed to understand is that film is an international language and if you are to be truly understood you must speak the language well.

That is not to say that I do not like or appreciate more"eccentric" and esoteric Japanese films. Too of my favorites are "Chushingura" (the 1962 version of this oft filmed play) and "The Gate of Hell." Both are excellent films from every stand point. Both have that deliberate pacing so common in Japanese drama and both luxuriate in the melancholy -- something, not unique to the Japanese, but which they do ever so well.

As for Kill Bill, sorry Gaius but I am not a big fan. It does have many of the elements of a chambara film but as is normal for Tarantino he pushes it to extremes which of course is part of his point is it not?

However, there is one scene in Kill Bill vol 1 that is, to my mind a perfect piece of cinema. Everything in it works and the sum of the parts (the movement of the actors, the lighting, the camera moves, the editing, the music) is perfection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKLeCjySMi8

My apologies for hijacking this thread if only for a moment... :oops:

:wink:

Narukami

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Sorry but i kindly disagree with you about Ghost Dog..

he uses Guns, he is not Japanese nor captures the actor the essence of Zen.

Also the way of the Samurai is not at all what they portray in that film.

The way of the Samurai lies in death, as the Hagakure writes.

Never selfish, always selfless.

Kill bill is hilarious as a rip off of chambara movies and was welcomed with a hainous laughter by many Japanese.

However it does capture some nice fighting scenes, but has nothing to do with the Samurai or the way of the samurai.

also the story of the Hanzo sword is ridiculous.

This is who the real Hattori Hanzo was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanz%C5%8D

Also Kurosawa-Sensei is not the only Japanese filmer of Samurai stories who has made very good films.

Samurai fiction is a hilarious mockery of the Samurai way, Yoji and Kita is one of the funniest movies i have ever seen, Zatoichi and Azumi are also fun.

here is a little list........

List of notable Samurai films

* 1949 Jakoman and Tetsu - directed by Senkichi Taniguchi
* 1950 Rashomon - directed by Akira Kurosawa
* 1951 Conclusion of Kojiro Sasaki-Duel at Ganryu Island directed by Hiroshi Inagaki - This was the first, but not the last, time that Toshiro Mifune played Musashi Miyamoto
* 1952 Vendetta for a Samurai - directed by Kazuo Mori
* 1954 Seven Samurai - directed by Akira Kurosawa
* 1954-56 Samurai Trilogy - directed by Hiroshi Inagaki
o 1954 Musashi Miyamoto
o 1955 Duel at Ichijoji Temple
o 1956 Duel at Ganryu Island
* 1957 Throne of Blood aka Spider Web Castle - directed by Akira Kurosawa
* 1958 The Hidden Fortress - directed by Akira Kurosawa
* 1959 Samurai Saga - directed by Hiroshi Inagaki
* 1960 The Gambling Samurai - directed by Senkichi Taniguchi
* 1961 Yojimbo aka The Bodyguard - directed by Akira Kurosawa
* 1962 Chushingura - directed by Hiroshi Inagaki
* 1962 Harakiri - directed by Masaki Kobayashi Won a prize at the Cannes Film Festival
* 1962 Tsubaki Sanjuro (AKA Sanjuro) - directed by Akira Kurosawa.
* 1964 Three Outlaw Samurai
* 1965 Samurai Assassin aka Samurai - directed by Kihachi Okamoto
* 1965 Sanshiro Sugata - directed by Seiichiro Uchikiro - this is a remake of Kurosawa's films Sanshiro Sugata and Sanshiro Sugata part 2
* 1966 The Sword of Doom - directed by Kihachi Okamoto
* 1966 The Adventure of Kigan Castle - directed by Senkichi Taniguchi
* 1967 Samurai Rebellion - directed by Masaki Kobayashi Rebellion won the Fipresci Prize at the Venice Film Festival
* 1969 Samurai Banners - directed by Hiroshi Inagaki
* 1969 Red Lion - directed by Kihachi Okamoto
* 1969 Band of Assassins - directed by Tadashi Sawashima
* 1969 Watch Out Crimson Bat
* 1970 Mission: Iron Castle
* 1970 The Ambitious
* 1970 Zatoichi Meets Yojimbo - directed by Kihachi Okamoto
* 1970 The Ambitious - directed by Daisuke Ito
* 1970 Incident at Blood Pass - directed by Hiroshi Inigaki
* 1977 Intrigue of the Yagyu Clan - directed by Kinji Fukasaku
* 1979 The 47 Ronin - directed by Kenji Mizoguchi
* 1981 The Bushido Blade - directed by Tsugunobu Kotani
* 1984 Legend of the Eight Samurai
* 1988 Zatoichi - Directed, written and starring Shintaru Katsu
* 2002 Twilight Samurai - directed by Yôji Yamada and nominated for a best foreign film Oscar.
* 2003 Zatoichi - directed and starring Beat Takeshi and Silver Lion award winner at Venice Film Festival

there have been a few recent ones which havent been translated yet. but its a start......

and, with re-enactment, its difficult to grasp the essence of the Samurai because that culture sadly has died and changed and has partly integrated into modern day Japan.

Same with ancient Rome for that matter, though on a much lesser manner.

M.VIB.M.

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

to give you a nice idea about European longsword techniques see this link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y

oh yes in European fighting there also is a mental aspect however i have never seen a proper Zen attitude about swords in Europe...

Europeans saw the sword as a tool.

True, even the Italian fencing master Fiore dei Liberi (1409) advices everybody to be as cruel, visious and traitorous as possible in a fight. This is a fight for your life. If you can win with pulling someone's hair, kick him in the groin, break his fingers or put your fingers in his eyes - do it.