Virginia Tech

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

It seems one person made a request to keep politics out of the thread and then makes his own political statements. I think this incident is to inflammatory at this point other than to regret the unnecessary loss of life and to sympathize with the families, nand to hope for the best for the living, and give what help we may be able to.

Ralph Izard

[Tarbicus]

Actually, there were no politics mentioned Ralph, so no hipocracy. I mean NO politics mentioned. But the post is gone.

[James B.]

Jim

First I hope to keep this out of the relm of polotics, but it is hard when you try and compare problems from one nation to another.

You know massacres are just as rare here as over there right? Europe has had sword massacres too, we have not. There is also the fact illegal guns are in every place, ban guns from legal sale and he would just have bought one illegally. For instance Columbine had an illegal pistol, neither of those boys was old enough to purchase a pistol but they got one on the streets not from home. Making drugs illegal has not made them unavailable.

DC has a gun ban and one of the worst murder rates in the country, it used to be the worst even with the ban.

Really if we wanted to make a law that would stop this guy from buying a gun we need one that puts mental patients on the list of ineligible to buy guns, but those who would ban guns would go nuts if you invaded his privacy.



Also the worst massacres in the USA and UK have been done with bombs so I do not see how banning guns helps make me any safer.

Now for the cold hard facts, last massacre like this was almost 10 years ago in the USA and was smaller, so 32 for 10 years. Today alone 130 plus people will die from smoking related illness and nearly 100 in traffic accidents, why don’t we ban those things? Summer is almost here, the state of CA has more children drown in pools in a year than the entire country will have children killed by guns this year; where is the outcry against pools?

If I recall Jim you felt the sword ban was silly yet there are plenty of murders and a I believe a massacre committed with a sword in your country, why is a sword ban sillier than a gun ban? Guns and swords are only tools.


Valerius

Sure I was picked on by people in school; I was a fat punk rocker, I just found them irrelevant who cares what those people think.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Jim as you probably know, I have a large gun collection (35+). I feel that it’s too much of a cultural gap for you to understand, but I will try to explain to you my view. Please do not think I am talking down to you. I am not! I don’t want to damage our friendship over something such as this. You have your views, and I have mine. :lol:

I grew up with firearms all around me. I was taught to shoot a small caliber single shot rifle for sport, and for fun, before I went to school. Hunting has been a family tradition on my mothers’ side of the family since they came to this country in the 18th cent. So there is a cultural difference that I do not expect you to grasp.

Hunting was a way of life for many families here in the Appalachians for many generations. If they didn’t get the "kill" they did not eat in some of these areas that are very secluded. Since that time hunting has grown into a sport more than a need, and it’s a skill that’s passed from father to son. So there is another cultural difference. The idea of teaching your young one to hunt, and to respect the environment.

I also believe that the so-called "gun culture" is nothing more than values of independence that many Americans have. As you know our country was born out of rebellion, and in many ways Americans tend to be more rebellious than Europeans. This possibly comes from our history, and mythos. We tend to place a certain value on going our own way in all aspects. We will question authority much quicker than some of our brethren in the old country.

Now for the reason I collect firearms. I love history and especially military history. Along with that love I love to target shoot. I enjoy taking my 1917 dated no1 MkIII Lee-Enfield to the range and shooting clays. To me I always wonder what this rifle has seen. If it could only speak! (maybe if it could it could convince people of how futile WW1 was) So there's the meat of my collection. Historical pieces from WW1 mainly, some WW2 and replica firelocks.

Hunting never appealed to me. I don’t want to harm anything much less a beautiful creature in the forest. I have owned modern assault rifles such as Ar15s, AK-47s, FN-FALs, etc etc These style of weapons have never really done anything for me since the historical value of them are really not in my area of study. My wife and my friends and I regularly go to the range with several rifles and target shoot. With that there’s plenty of fun conversation about shooting zombies, dinosaurs or Santa Claus. That’s all it is nothing more. We have no ideas of committing crimes with them. We waste money on ammunition, and targets then go home.

I have been labeled as a "gun nut" by many from the "left" simply because I have firearms, and I enjoy target shooting. Personally I resent that because I am not a "nut" and neither are the vast majority of gun owners that I know. Everyone that I know is a upstanding member of society pays taxes, and contributes something to the community.

I attend gun shows in a 300 mile radius of my hometown on a regular basis, and I will take a shot at ( non pun intended) in saying that 90% of the people attending these shows are over the age of 60. Most of them are there to look for a new bird gun, or rabbit gun to trade, or to get away from the wife and tell lies about hunting. Not very dissimilar to guys in your town going to the pub for a couple of pints. I attend because I am looking for a new restoration project. Happen to have a pre-1915 No1 MkIII with volley sites, and cut-off?

Now for the argument that people want guns for defense. I will speak again from my personal experience, and knowledge. Many people feel that they need a firearm to protect themselves from whatever threat that they perceive. Folks around here live in some pretty rural places where it could take law enforcement up to an hour to arrive (not always, but sometimes) So they feel they need for protection incase there is a crazy hopped up on meth, or whiskey, or your basic run of the mill a$$hole.

Then there’s the possibility of bears, dogs etc etc (but these are not my reasons). I keep a loaded shotgun in my bedroom incase someone were to break into my home that could cause harm to my wife first, and secondly to myself. I pray that I never have to raise it in anger..... but better to have it if needed, than to not have it if needed.


Judge me, as you will these are my views. However I hope you get an insight to the reasons why.

[Tarbicus]

James, there are no actual sword statistics, and all evidence is anecdotal (the police records don't differentiate between a penknife and a claymore). But I personally believe they should be regulated regardless, and should be securely locked up in case of a break-in, which I do anyway.

Paul, thanks for the reply to the question and you've answered it, I think. It's food for thought at least.

[john m roberts]

For four days I've heard talking heads call this "the worst school massacre in American history." It isn't. That record is still held by the town of Bath, Michigan, where in 1927 yet another nutjob with a grudge planted about 1000 lbs of dynamite beneath a local school and set it off, after first murdering his wife and tying up all his animals inside his barn, which he set on fire. Then, as a crowd gathered to rescue those inside the school he detonated another bomb inside his shrapnel-filled truck, killing himself and several more victims. The ultimate death toll was 45, most of them children 12 and under. Searching the rubble, police found another 500 lbs of dynamite unexploded. Had it gone off, the body count would have been much higher. The incident made headlines worldwide, but there was no media frenzy, not because the press of the day was more restrained, but because they were already engaged in another frenzy - the Lindbergh flight.

I have yet to hear the incident mentioned in all the reporting about VA Tech. I guess 80 years is too great a historical gap for American audiences to comprehend, no guns were used, tv and video games couldn't be blamed, and there was no race angle, so effectively there's nothing to be mined from it. The guy's problem? He was angry about a school tax, which he blamed for his farm's failure. He left behind a message: "Criminals are made, not born." Another failure who had to blame everyone else for his own problems and kill innocents in revenge.

[James B.]

Jim

Locked up is one thing, mine are not they are just in a closet but I don't have kids, but registration and a ban on sales is another.

As to sword statistics if there is a one off case that warrants the ban of guns when why is a one off case not good enough for swords. I read about rival gang members attacking each other with cheap Japanese style swords in London being a growing problem last summer, it was part of the outcry for the sword ban.

Heck there are a bunch of baseball bat murders that have happened lately too, why don't we ban them. Picking on guns seems to come from an irrational fear of them than a statistical based rational judgment. We know of countries full of guns with some of the lowest murder rates in the world and some with a ban on guns that have lots of gun murders; it clearly shows that culture not guns are the issue so why start banning tools instead of confronting our cultural issues?

[Praefectusclassis]

Although this thread is a potential politics war waiting to happen, I'm going to keep it open for now. This terribly tragedy has affected many of us and we need to be able to discuss it in the adult and civilized way we discuss other subjects. I think that has been the case so far and I hope it will continue this way.
This is also a gesture towards those who think that RAT is over-moderated. I'll give it some leeway now, but don't make me regret it or you will!

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Thanks Jasper!


I think we all here get emotionally attached to these subjects, but in the end most of us do not bear ill towards the other. Except James B he is a real #$%#@!$@!# :wink:

[Felix Canus]

I noticed the "rich kid" comments as well. I don't think that was meant as a strike against the wealthy, especially since this guy was also raised in a fairly well-off home. I suspect it was referring to the attitude that a lot of wealthy kids grow up with. The elitist, abusive attitude that says "I can say and do anything I want because mommy and daddy will buy my way out of it." I run into those people a lot. Although I could never condone shooting them, I would dearly love the chance to put them over my knee and spank some sense into them (like their parents should have done).

[James B.]

First I apologize if my previous posts are getting a little too political, it is hard to avoid that with a question like Jim asked; there are cultural view points involved.


Felix

Problem with what he ranted about is that 95% of the kids he went to school with are from the same place he is from, two of his victims went to the same high school he did. Americans really don't understand the concept of rich and poor, he was not poor and most of the student body is not rich they are middle class and most parents take out loans and mortgages to send their kids to school. Cho was delusional; he felt a gap that did not exist. He had more money than I did when I went to school; I couldn't buy CDs much less guns back then.

[Tarbicus]

And my apologies. It wasn't a pop at anyone, just a genuine question which was answered very eloquently.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I noticed the "rich kid" comments as well. I don't think that was meant as a strike against the wealthy, especially since this guy was also raised in a fairly well-off home. I suspect it was referring to the attitude that a lot of wealthy kids grow up with. The elitist, abusive attitude that says "I can say and do anything I want because mommy and daddy will buy my way out of it." I run into those people a lot. Although I could never condone shooting them, I would dearly love the chance to put them over my knee and spank some sense into them (like their parents should have done).

Yeah, I hear you there! I see many like that offshore nowdays! And they wonder why the HSE says the safety record is spiraling downhill! :roll:

[Narukami]

And it spreads...

Just received an e-mail from my wife of a news report about the police locking down schools in the Yuba City area (Northern California near Sacramento) after receiving threats from an individual who said he was armed with an AK47, explosives and poison.

Report from Reuters below:

California schools "lock down" after murder threat

17 minutes ago

Schools in Yuba City, California were ordered into a "lock-down" on Thursday
after police warned a man had threatened to go on a killing spree in locals
schools.

The Sutter County Sheriff's Department said on its Web site it had been
warned that Jeffery Thomas Carney intended to make the mass slaying at
Virginia Tech "look mild" and that he had said he was armed with an AK-47
rifle, improvised explosive devices and poison.

Yuba City is located north of the state capital of Sacramento.


I hope this is not the start of something.



Narukami

[Magnus]

Paul, if half the people in the US had as much responsibility and your attitude towards firearms, I don't think the firearm issue would be much of one at all.

Problem is you have very unstable "kids" with access to the same weaponry that we adults have...or people who are responsible have. That's a recipe for disaster. I always liked the saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". The unfortunate part of it is that guns are IMO too easy to acquire in the US. So when you do have a whack job like this piece of crap, he is able to get his hands on something that is capable of killing, and killing in high numbers.

I also don't think you can compare swords vs guns. Their usage is much different, and you can kill or injure a LOT more people with a firearm than you can with an edged weapon.

I'm against banning firearms...my gov't has tried to squeeze gun owners in the past (when it's not them even committing the crimes!), but I do like the hoops you have to go through to buy them. Because of all these steps, it decreases the # of firearms brought into this country, legal or otherwise. Because of that, the chances of such a rampage in our schools are a lot lower. Not saying it doesn't happen...it did in a Montreal school back in 1989, when some piece of s**t killed 14 women because he "hated feminists".

I truly think that because the responsible people like paul are getting older, and being replaced by irresponsible, deluded, annoying cry babies like that guy, that maybe new safeguards need to be implemented in many areas, not just with firearms.

I think the times they are a changing, and maybe some kind of new legislation, that isn't specific to one state, but the entire country needs to be introduced? I know that is part of the complexity, is that state laws can differ in each state.

However, I also truly feel that people that have mental health issues should be SEVERELY restricted in their freedoms. Hell, even stick a GPS tracker in their skin. They are too unpredictable and pose a very real threat to society. That in itself is reason to control them better.

Course, if it was up to me, they'd all be in the gladiatorial arena for our amusement. But then, I guess that'd be too barbaric. :wink: