New Gladius Hispaniensis with scabbard - Opinions ?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Armillum Hispaniensis is a lighter then deepeekas. But it's not a fulham...

[arklore70]

Gents,
i did some digging around based on a comment by oone of the Age of Chivarly folks.

They had mentioned that some early Republican blades were fullered, so I went back to Miks and if anyone else has a copy of Miks, it looks like the blade might be based off any one of the following blades to include illustrations A757, A815, A814, and A631. A827 also, though it looks like the blade might have been too badly eroded to know for sure.

Anyone else want to take a look. I know on the current sword in question the doubled fullered lines stop about 1/5 of the way down the length of the blade.which maybe only could apply to A827 and A757.

Their other roman like blade Roman Gladius might be based off A185.

They mentioned Bashford Dean's work on weapons as a source. I am not sure if that means anything or not.

Thoughts?

[Binoy Fernandez]

Okay, so the Actium was released earlier this month. I, unfortunately, don't have a copy of Miks to check pictures. Seeing as it is an Angus Trim / Christian Fletcher collaboration it's likely an excellent blade, though from the posts in this thread it sounds like there is some artistic license going on.

So, here are some questions:

(1) Were there any Hispaniensis types that had the double fuller?
(2) Is the blade shape correct?
*The waisting looks, to me, pretty pronounced.
*From the images I've seen the angle on the blade, where the point starts, is also more pronounced than I would expect.
(3) I can't tell if the plate in the guard is brass, bronze, or something else.
(4) I think the grip is the right size, but can't tell material....
(5) I think it fits the hispaniensis in length. I believe it was longer than the traditional Mainz style blade.

So am I completely crazy with these observations? I feel like I'm being too critical here, but I've been doing some research on the Mainz style and I hope I'm learning.

[Matt Lukes]

What makes you think that because it's those guys doing the design it'll be any good? Do they know much about Roman swords?

[Binoy Fernandez]

What makes you think that because it's those guys doing the design it'll be any good?

Fletcher and Trim know quite a bit about swords and the process of designing and forging them, from what I can tell. I'll say here that I've never handled a sword attached to either of their names, but the reviews of them are good. I have, though, read posts made by them on other forums, several of which go into sword physics and design, and they do know what they are talking about. So when it comes to making a good blade I think that you have a top notch collaboration and that it will be an excellent blade. However, this statement isn't meant to imply anything about them putting together an excellent Roman sword.

Do they know much about Roman swords?

I found this late last night, but based on a reply by a Valiant Armoury rep on another forum, the design is not supposed to be historically accurate. It is, however, supposed to be historically plausible. Does it accomplish that? Probably. So it doesn't look like they are going for a Hispaniensis which would have been remarkable in ancient times only because of the superior quality of the steel, but wanted to make something that could be considered a "fantasy sword" back then in that it would only have been made for the extremely wealthy who never went into battle. I've been told I have a somewhat strange sense of what makes a fantasy blade, so take that last statement carefully. :wink:

Oh, I did find out that the guard has a brass plate set in it.

[Doc]

Binoy,

Just my two cents: I do not think that the wealthy Romans back then wanted fantasy swords hanging around. Wealthy Romans would acutally have REAL swords made for them that were fully functional with intricate designs but more importantly, with precious metals. Trophies won in combat that could be hanging around were still functional and real not fantasy.

[Binoy Fernandez]

Binoy,

Just my two cents: I do not think that the wealthy Romans back then wanted fantasy swords hanging around. Wealthy Romans would acutally have REAL swords made for them that were fully functional with intricate designs but more importantly, with precious metals. Trophies won in combat that could be hanging around were still functional and real not fantasy.

Doc,

I don't think anyone who commissioned a sword, owned one, or had one hanging on their wall, until recent times, considered those swords as fantasy swords, whether or not they actually were. I'm also pretty sure that it wasn't until recent times that swords which weren't functional were made at all. Having said that, I think that the Valiant Armory Actium, which this thread was asking about, is 100% functional. I used the example of a wealthy Roman because it was the first one that came to mind, and for no other reason, I could probably think of several other scenarios if pressed.

I don't really want to get into a discussion on what is fantasy and what isn't, or, at least, not in this thread. I'm more curious about what the general opinion of this sword is in regards to plausibility, and how it diverges from historical record. With the brief amount of study I've done I've offered my thoughts up, and I'm curious as to what you all think.

[Tarbicus]

It is, however, supposed to be historically plausible. Does it accomplish that? Probably. So it doesn't look like they are going for a Hispaniensis which would have been remarkable in ancient times only because of the superior quality of the steel, but wanted to make something that could be considered a "fantasy sword" back then in that it would only have been made for the extremely wealthy who never went into battle.

Historically plausible? So is gunpowder in the Roman army; they had all the ingredients.

The extremely wealthy who never went into battle? The extremely wealthy were at one time asked to train new recruits in swordsmanship during an emergency. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they tended to be amongst the best trained in martial arms combat throughout history, contrary to Hollywood stereotypes.

[Binoy Fernandez]

Historically plausible? So is gunpowder in the Roman army; they had all the ingredients.

The extremely wealthy who never went into battle? The extremely wealthy were at one time asked to train new recruits in swordsmanship during an emergency. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they tended to be amongst the best trained in martial arms combat throughout history, contrary to Hollywood stereotypes.

Still, I'd say that that sword design is more plausible than Roman cannon. I'd consider plausibility not on whether they had all the requisite components, but whether it's realistic to expect they would come up with the design / technology based on historical information. I don't believe there's any evidence for the Romans making gunpowder, or even black powder. There is historical evidence that they crafted waisted swords, and, concerning the design of the Actium, the question on plausibility being proposed is whether or not that is a design that could likely have existed back then, even if it was not the design adopted by the legions.

I'd caution to not confuse "wealthy" with "nobility." I think that a society requires a standing army - the full time soldier - to begin to really develop a merchant class. Members of the merchant class may be nobility and they may come from a martial background, but they are not, strictly speaking, from one or the other. Before the development of the merchant class the societal class structure was more rigid - you had your upper class i.e. nobles and you had your lower class i.e. not nobles. In virtually every society with a noble class the nobles did have extensive martial training as part of their upbringing and were looked to to lead the armies. So in that kind of society, yes, you're right, the wealthy members of society were the nobility and were well trained in martial arts.

This all started to change with the creation of a merchant class. There was more class mobility, and just by being born into nobility did not mean that you would have wealth. Among the merchant class you could, and probably did, have individuals who amassed enormous wealth without ever going through military training.

If you look at how western society has evolved since the rise of the merchant class you will see what I am saying. I don't know much about Roman history, but seeing that they had a standing army I'm assuming they had a merchant class. I don't know if men in the Empire were required to serve time in the legions, like how Israel is today. If that wasn't the case, then that increases the likelihood that a wealthy merchant would commission a sword for show and/or status.

So I hope that makes some sort of sense.

[john m roberts]

A parallel with what you propose might be those gaudy, Edo-period wakizashis commissioned by wealthy Japanese merchants who were forbidden even to own a longsword, much less carry one. They were permitted to carry a shortsword and they compensated by ordering them lavishly decorated, something repugnant to the austere samurai class. Personally, I am more concerned with the nearly spear-shaped point section of the Actium. Is there evidence for this shape being really used?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Apparently, according to Miks book anyways....

[FatBaron]

So what is the overall verdict on this sword in terms of historical accuracy? Doesn't seem to be as far away from a REAL Roman sword as - for example - a cannon would. :wink: And the quality seems to be quite good too - compared to the Deepeeka gladii for example.

Found some more pictures by the way:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... C00063.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... C00066.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... C00071.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... C00075.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... C00081.jpg

You can find even more pictures in the album of guy who took these photos: http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l114/ ... /?newest=1 (below and second page)

Felix

PS: Photos above do NOT show the original sword. See my post below.

[jvrjenivs]

I would say it is fantasy with roman influences. Seeing those pics the quality looks good, but you have to handle a blade to feel the real craftmanship of course.

The handle is okay, the shape of the blade also, but not those grooves, if I'm right. The scabbard isn't good either. Those ribs should be from metal, bent around the leather covered scabbard. Also, it seems moste mainz type scabbards had metal edging all around.

[Virilis]

In fact some gladius Hispaniensis examples did have a grooves on the blade (according to Miks) but they were longer and continued the whole length of the blade. The scabbard needs some brass work as Jurgen said. Otherwise the sword in itself is quite good and it could be easy to lengthen the grooves?

[FatBaron]

I just found out that the photos I posted above don't show the original sword but a modified one. You can check the review of the guy who modfied it here: http://sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... read=13461

Main differences concern the material of the handle and the color of the fullers (not so pronounced in the original).

Here is a photo of the unmodified sword and scabbard. http://www.valiant-armoury.com/AB-02.jpg

felix