1st Century Roman Leather Pouch Link

[Marcus Mummius]

Can you show a picture of your fascia ventralis? That is a new term to me, I do have a sash for my 18th century stuff...I am curious if they are similar....
Wes

It is probably the same, Wes! But perhaps the wrong kind of fabric?

Here are some threads that discussed the garment in the past, I think they'll answer all your questions:wink: :

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... +ventralis

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... sc&start=0

Vale,

[Caballo]

" But there are NO depictions or suggestions of ANYthing hung from a belt around the first century.

You might guess that this is one of my pet peeves, along with bracers or wrist guards! "

Fair comment...though there are also no depictions of canteens or other impedimenta. Possibly when depicted on a grave stele they were in parade order "Sunday best"? Certainly by second century pouches were worn on the belt (cf Dura paintings, Lyons Utere Felix belt etc)

Cheers

Caballo

[Marcus Mummius]

" But there are NO depictions or suggestions of ANYthing hung from a belt around the first century.

You might guess that this is one of my pet peeves, along with bracers or wrist guards! "

Fair comment...though there are also no depictions of canteens or other impedimenta. Possibly when depicted on a grave stele they were in parade order "Sunday best"? Certainly by second century pouches were worn on the belt (cf Dura paintings, Lyons Utere Felix belt etc)

Cheers

Caballo

For what it's worth: on Trajan's Column canteens (be they for water or for oil) are depicted but no pouches :wink:

[Caballo]

"on Trajan's Column canteens (be they for water or for oil) are depicted but no pouches"
Thanks- I'd missed that! Where on the column are they shown?

[Marcus Mummius]

"on Trajan's Column canteens (be they for water or for oil) are depicted but no pouches"
Thanks- I'd missed that! Where on the column are they shown?

They are attached to the furca. I don't have a direct link handy but I know a picture was posted on RAT a few days ago...

[Matthew Amt]

Fair comment...though there are also no depictions of canteens or other impedimenta. Possibly when depicted on a grave stele they were in parade order "Sunday best"?

But there are no belt pouches shown in battle scenes or in any civilian scenes that I know of, either. Nor any references in literature.

Certainly by second century pouches were worn on the belt (cf Dura paintings, Lyons Utere Felix belt etc)

Then that's fine for THAT era or impression! But Dura is mid-third century, be careful about dragging its evidence back too far. I didn't know any pouch remains were found at Lyon, I thought it was just the belt fittings, but I haven't really looked!

Marcus, are you referring to the net bag shown on the Column? I agree that those might be flasks of some sort, but there are other interpretations. Paterae and situlae are shown clearly, but nothing that resembles the well-known iron or ceramic "canteens".

Valete,

Matthew

[Tarbicus]

But Dura is mid-third century, be careful about dragging its evidence back too far. I didn't know any pouch remains were found at Lyon, I thought it was just the belt fittings, but I haven't really looked!

cough - splutter - ahem - harrumph...
http://www.romancoins.info/DuraEuroposScutum.JPG

[Caballo]

"I didn't know any pouch remains were found at Lyon" The pouch itself had long disappeared, but the presence of :-
a/ Money (poss carried in a pouch)
b/ A loop on the belt to hold (say) a pouch
c/ The absence of anything else that could have hung from it

...leads me IMHO to believe that a pouch was carried by the poor bloke who ended up in a well- though I cannot prove it.... Certainly, James his Dura book believes that the loop in the Utere Felix belt was used to hang a pouch off it.

Btw , re the canteen, was this the source- looking at the archway on the left?


Cheers

Caballo

[Marcus Mummius]

Btw , re the canteen, was this the source- looking at the archway on the left?


Cheers

Caballo

Yep that's the scene I mean. But I can't see the picture very well at the moment (very bad screen).

Vale

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I have been known to tie my "purse" to the belt thats supporting my tunic, under my armour. Keeps it out of the way, and would potentially keep cutpurses away.


:wink: Plus this was a common method of carrying ones purse in Medieval times.

[Ironhand]

Very good point Paul. Just because you cannot see it doesn't mean it isn't there. They have to have something to carry money in. On the march it might not be necessary, but it wasn't exactly a barter system for what soldiers typically want. Booze and women aren't exactly free or cheap. Even using brothel tokens you have to have somewhere to put those as well. Gambling was common and as a soldier you can't exactly just give away your equipment for payment so its fair to say most everyone probably would have had a money pouch concealed on his person.

[Tarbicus]

Some tombstones show a continuous quilted rectangle the width of the apron straps at the top, where the apron meets the belt. Not saying it is, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were purses, with the apron acting as a built in alarm bell system (the jingly fittings).

[Senovara]

Great work on those pouches Martin! You're a real master at this type of thing. I've just begun making pouches, but they're nowhere near as good as yours!

Well, I wonder if any design motifs were used, if any decoration was painted/sewn onto the pouches?

[Martin Moser]

Well, I wonder if any design motifs were used, if any decoration was painted/sewn onto the pouches?

Very well possible I would say, but with pouches there are none we know of. Decorative stitching on leather fragments was found however, so it certainly is a possibilty. Ah, just remembered, little bit of decoration is on the bag Marcus Mummius did a while ago - there should be a pic somewhere here on RAT (can't find it at the moment :-( ( )

[Marcus Mummius]

Here are some pictures of the bag from Vindonissa.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/M ... aklein.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/M ... mklein.jpg


To Martin and Florian: I didn't forget about the article but I still have to go to that library and make copies!!! I'm so busy :oops:

Vale