I think that a kick plate would be far too thick for this sort of work. As I said on the other thread, your best source of the right type of brass plate would be the 4x10" plates manufactured by KS Engineering, which should be available from any hobby shop. After all, if they are available in places as far apart as England and New Zealand (as they are) then they must be available in the country they are manufactured in.
Take another look at my thread on how I made my scabbard. Take time to read the text as well as looking at the pictures, as I covered a good deal of what you need to know (materials and techniques wise) in that thread. I tried to make it as detailed as possible so that it could act as a tutorial. http://romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?func=v...&id=268995
Don't forget it has two pages and you should find useful information on both.
I would echo the advice about solid brass as opposed to brass plate. Although I do think a kick plate would be too thick for your purposes, I would still recommend the door handle for making the terminal knob and in that case it would certainly need to be solid brass as you would be cutting and filing much of the surface away.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Crispvs,
hey made in USA okey dokey, I will read it all now :oops: sowwy. Uh, I'll raise hell if the guy doesn't have it at the hobby store, 4/10 sure thing. If he doesn,t :evil: I'll search for other stores, of buy it super cheap of internet. I've seen hobby sheet brass...like K&S Brass Sheet 4x10x.005 but you also get a thicker .010 thous*? My dad thinks .005 is about 5 sheets of paper thick, might be the one. He also said, if he has em, we'll buy both types. Can't go wrong there eh? They're dirt cheap on the internet, better be in store :-? We're gonna have our english breaky and head out to do some errands, including the brass :grin: I will go to a hardware store and ask for solid brass door handles. Gonna read your thread now Thanks!
ate breaky, and have a question. How did you get or make the formers? Do I have to worry about that? I might not need that as I wont have a chape plate as you do? Or will I? none was featured in the finds like Long Windsor etc.
Alright! I have read IT ALL! It has helped a bit I get lost pretty easily but I think I can manage it, I don't know what the chape on this type of scabbard is supposed to look like. Any surviving examples?
thanks Tarbicus, but too early of types. I'm trying to find the sample in the Grosvenor Museum and I'm using paper right now to recreate a draft of the metal I'll be cutting for the upper section. My scabbard to the eye seems wide when looking at swords on the internet, but it's probably just playing tricks of realism to my eyes! :roll:
I made the formers myself from brass, sweat and a good deal of muscle development. :wink:
You are correct that you should not need such formers for a scabbard like the Long Windsor one. The cross hangers will only have a simple single ridge on the front and would almost certainly be flat on the back. The same goes for the horizontal part of the chape.
You are also correct that the chape should probably not have the decorative plate found on a Pompeii type chape and would thus consist of just the two gutters, the horizontal element you can see in the picture, a flat bracing piece for the back (in the same position on the back as the ridged piece on the front) and a terminal knob. If you look at the picture you may be able to see that the horizontal part is riveted in place at one end and soldered onto the gutter at the other end. The piece on the back could be attached in the same way, or alternatively you could still punch holes in the right places but use them to insert small nails, which could pass through both the ends of the bracing piece and the tops of the gutters and be driven into the wood of the scabbard (remember to drill pilot holes first) so as to help fix the chape to the scabbard (we still don't know how the Romans fixed chapes in place themselves). If you do do this I would suggest soldiering the bracing piece in place first anyway (after you have made the holes) as this will make the chape stronger overall.
If you plan on making a copy of the Long Windsor locket plate (which would probably be easiest) I would copy the shape of the Valkenburg plate. Do the decoration before you bend the sides around the scabbard body. For making the decoration I would recommend you use a small chisel and a small circular punch. Remember also to make a small hole in each of the top corners of the locket plate, as I did, to attach a bracing piece, as well as holes at the bottoms of the legs to attach the upper cross hanger, before you bend it around the scabbard body. For the 'L' shaped cutouts I would use a very small chisel. Hit it using more force with the hammer than for the crossed diagonal lines. When using a chisel on the brass sheet put a flat piece of thicker (perhaps 1/4 inch) metal underneath, otherwise the chisel strikes will simply deform your plate rather than cutting into it. Make sure you position the chisel very carefully before striking, so as not to slip on the smooth brass. If you have not done that sort of thing before I would suggest getting your dad to show you first.
I hope this helps. If there is anything else you need help with, keep the questions coming and we wil do out best to help.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
OK, thanks anyway. :-D
So I went to the hobby store, and they had some brass sheeting there, only a sheet of each different thickness so if I needed more... :neutral: , and it was 6"-12" and you had a choice of 0.10 th , 0.16 th , and .025 th. Anything thicker than that is impossible to use for this. I thought the .10 and maybe the .016 is too thin and flimzy and would seem a little pathetic. I think it was the .025 was a nice suitable one, but I wasn't sure, and what toppled me me getting it was that it was $9.79!!! I found this, but I want to make sure I'm getting the right thickness, so if someone could look into that I'd be much appreciative! This is the same thing but larger and also fits Crispvs' suggestion of measures! K&S Brass Sheet 6x12 .025 FS20 16405 Price is $6.49. It's not big difference, and shipping might be a bit, so I might just get it at store ad: If you know what thickness, that'd be awesome 8-)
I've had a look at the wrapper from the last plate I bought, which is the same gauge as the one I made my locket plate and gutters from. It says that the plate was .015 so if I were you I would go for the .016 plate you mentioned. It won't seem nearly as flimsy once you have cut to size and started working on it. Brass hardens up very quickly once it starts to come under stress, hence to need to anneal it from time to time.
The picture Tarbicus posted up is a reconstruction of a sword found in the River Ljubljanica in Slovenia, made by Eric Koenig, who really is the master of this art. This sword is definitely Augustan (probably early Augustan) and is one of a group of scabbards or partial scabbards with so-called 'net-like fittings'. I think that this scabbard would be very hard for a beginner (I would hesitate to attempt it myself) so I would still suggest reconstructing the Long Windsor example.
I know I have a picture of the Grosvenor Museum chape somewhere but I can't find it. Frustratingly it has also been overlooked by Christian Miks in his otherwise exhaustive book on Roman swords. However, the remains of the Long Windsor chape look like part of a Pompeii type chape, albeit of a fairly simple form. Therefore, I would suggest taking inspiration for the lower part of the chape from this fragmentary example:
If you combine this fragment with the remains of the Long Windsor chape, remembering to include a bracing plate on the back at the top as I described above and adjust the angle of the side gutters to fit with the shape of your scabbard body, I think you should end up with a very nice looking piece.
Note that the terminal knob is all one piece of brass into which the side gutters are inserted, as you will be able to see in the picture above. Once you have made the terminal knob you may have to spend some time hollowing out the inside of the top, to you leave a small 'wall' for the gutters to sit within.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Quote:The picture Tarbicus posted up is a reconstruction of a sword found in the River Ljubljanica in Slovenia, made by Eric Koenig, who really is the master of this art. This sword is definitely Augustan (probably early Augustan) and is one of a group of scabbards or partial scabbards with so-called 'net-like fittings'. I think that this scabbard would be very hard for a beginner (I would hesitate to attempt it myself)
I'm not sure I agree with you on that, Crispus. I certainly don't think it'd be any more difficult than your own Pompeii type to construct. When you look at the Ljubljanica example, the most difficult parts would be the thicker cross-joints, but the rest is brass strips. Even the chape has just a small, plain plate.
The cross-joints could be thicker brass, filed down for the decorative raised features. The smaller horizontal strips would join beneath the cross-joints, held together by a central rivet or even soldered beneath.
I have a Paul Chen/Hanwei gladius which is an ideal blade shape, and have stripped down the scabbard. The scabbard shape was originally more of a thin Pompeii style, but I rounded off the sharp angled return to the chape. I plan on turning this into a Ljubljanica version. The Hanwei sword, by the way, has a beautiful weight and balance to it, but is also sharp :neutral:
I look forward to seeing how it goes frater Tarbicus. The blade shape of the Hanwei sword is a little unusual but Miks does illustrate a blade of near on exactly that shape so there is nothing fundamentally wrong (as long as you can handle the sharp edge). I agree that that scabbard could form a good basis for a reconstruction of the Ljubljanica scabbard but the reason I thought it could be tricky was not so much the guttering or the 'net' on the face but the unusual cross hangers and the largish fitting on the back with its animal head attachments which you can see in the photo. I think that that somewhat heavier metalwork would require a degree of practice.
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Ooh, thanks Crispus for the link to the JRMES reference, which I lost the link to ages ago. Here's the recent off-the-shelf version of the Ljubljanica sword:
I think if you do better than that then you're doing fine.
It may even be worth casting the decorative parts in brass. Perhaps make the central spine and animal heads from wax and pass onto professionals for a decent (and safer) job.
Yes, it does look very good. The only thing it is missing is the unusual fitting on the back with its animal head attachments. You are right about the casting the decorative elements. The originals were cast and it would take a good deal of skill and expense to make the same thing from thick plate.
This is, of course, another reason why I feel that the Long Windsor sheath would be a better one for Sam to try. However, if you are serious about recreating this scabbard though Tarbicus I would be very keen to see your efforts. It might even provide an excuse for us to be in the same place at the same time for once.
Crispvs
Who is called \'\'Paul\'\' by no-one other than his wife, parents and brothers. :!: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" />:!:
Hey I am going with the .016 and here are some pictures of some kinda templates which I'll copy for the brass. I like the one still on paper better, and the gutters may seem wide, but when wrapped around the sides, they are a good fit. I hope the design is good, as you will see it's also based on one of those Crispvs showed me on his article. One thing, look at the two different types of "clam" designs shown, is there an accurate one? Does the one on the right look better?
Thanks,
Sam.
Thanks!
I get lost pretty easily but I think I can manage it, I don't know what the chape on this type of scabbard is supposed to look like. Any surviving examples?
![[Image: 184939300310_rews7c.jpg]](http://www.replik-online.de/de/shop/bilder/184939300310_rews7c.jpg)
ad: If you know what thickness, that'd be awesome 8-) ![[Image: Terminal.jpg]](http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b73/Crispvs/Terminal.jpg)
