Latin commands thread

[Robert Vermaat]

At the risk of getting even more of a reputation for pedantry... I've now had time to digest Mr Amt's fascinating post of the Maurice. The list of commands is interesting not only because it contains singular imperatives where we'd expect plural ones, but because some of the case uses are dodgy, e.g ad conto, ad scuto. Also the pronunciation seems to have moved away from the Classical. e.g. "senestra" for "sinistra"; "depone au dextra au senestra" must be "aut... aut" but the final t has dropped out.
This all strongly suggests to me that these commands are genuine spoken ones, not invented academic ones. Romans, just like us, were more careless in speech than in writing, and by the Medieval period Latin was much simpler and would have made a C1st/C2nd AD Roman author turn in his urn. Maurice's C6th Latin commands seem well on their way to the Medieval.
Which then raises the question as to what one should do for C2 AD re-enactment. Use Maurice's commands verbatim, or rein back a bit and tighten up the grammar to "correct" four centuries of back-sliding?<br>
Shaun

A fascinating thread re-opened.
In fact, I have been discussing this with members of the Herculiani, a French Late Roman re-enactment group. They in fact propose to 'correct' the bad latin to more acceptable forms. For me, I would like to keep it as it is, using 'incorrect' forms above grammatically correct version, of which there seems to be no example.
I found the comparison between Arrina and Maurice also very telling, although I know of course that Maurice uses Arrian almost verbatim at times.

So what's the current opinion? 'Translate' latin until it fits the correct use, or keep it as it is and accept bad Latin? Ad signo or ad signum?

[richsc]

The use of singular may mean that the commands are addressed to a body or group, rather than individuals. Rather like "Company, march" or "Platoon, halt" which are singular in English.
Thus an effort to correct the Latin may actually break the meaning, as none of us really know how Roman commands were given and by whom. Are the commands for a century? Contuburnium (note singular)? For anyone or group within earshot?

[Arthes]

Greetings,
amongst our list of commands are
ad signa...
ad gladium/ad scutum,clina
ad senestram/dextram depone
which are, of course, late Roman...
as our scutums are usually in our left hands.....that one is easy enough, but sometimes you forget your senestram from your dextram...or I do.... :roll:
regards
Arthes

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

this is interesting


1.) romans were notoriously bad spellers, e goes in for I quite often in some texts, which would not then rule out sene-, or sini-, but there are two sides to this coin, we really don't know what romans sounded like, we can only guess through backwards working.

2.) the command depone seems odd.

DEPONERE-lit. to lay down

DEPONE- sing. meaning- to a singular thing: lay down

the most logical I would think would be- DEPONITE lit. y'all lay down

used in that context.

the command that makes sense is in fact then: ROTATE imperative verd meaning y'all wheel/rotate

anyone got an idea as to why marice would use such an odd word?????

[Arthes]

Greetings,
very strange.....
I wonder if originally it meant ya'll lay down your caligae on that road to the right or left :roll:
Another thought that comes to mind is it was a term that meant the same as what a trucker would term as right or left hand down....when steering a trailer in the right direction!!!
regards
Arthes

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

that could very well be it. Also, I have indeed seen the singular imperative used to indicate a body of people (plautus comes to mind), so that may be valid.

[Robert Vermaat]

I guess by that time the meaning of the word was lost, or did not matter anymore. The Latin command, I guess, was probably corrupted down the line?

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

exactly- that is why it cannot be used for earlier periods.

let me lay it out, most people forget all this, as a linguistics scholar I think I might be able to shed some light on it.


era-strategikon is 6th century, and late at that. so only for late romans may it possibly be correct.

language- strategikon is originally in characters of a koine greek nature i.e. byzantine-greek cyrillic. maurice was almost 100% a speaker of both latin and koine greek. during this time period it is not at all uncommon to see mixing of these two-yes, mixing of latin and a koine dialect of greek (gasp) there sticks out in my mind an 8th century text I was reading- the word was 'Paenadigitate' if i remember the spelling correctly, at any rate this is a binding of the greek verb 'repent', but with a latin ending- the same thing could have happened with the strategikon- only the other way around- maybe he put latin roots with corruptions of koine endings. this would make the whole set of endings on the commands unuseable for anything IMHO before c. 400 A.D.

some words in the strategikon are so corrupted that they aren't even real latin- as I look at some reenactors drills (this is NOT meant to target or offend anyone) I see words corrupt to the point where most romans wouldn't have understood them. in other words, call commands to modern people in a dialect of 7th century anglo-saxon, it may be close, but still not in many cases decipherable. for these words we need to find the real latin verb they come from, and properly make them that verb.

in essence IMHO we just need to change endings to either singular, or plural imperative (your choice, people will understand it either way) and uncorrupt certain words.

nobody should take this as a complaint, rant, or anything else, just a linguist who cringes when he hears someone say 'Deponat' with no E on the field.

sorry for being long winded.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi John,
Thanks for that, it was enlighthening.
So, if you were us (a Late Roman group doing c. 4th c. with a late 6th c. source), would you 'translate' the 'bad' Latin to 'acceptable' Latin, considering the 4th c. would have used Latin instead of Greek?

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

yeah, I think that is the best way to go for now. do not, however, count out the fact that some greek words were in common usage, so in everyday usage some properly latinized greek words may be used, but most commands should be given in straight latin.

you are in the netherlands, so if you happen to be proficient in anglo-saxon (early dialect) that would be another alternative for foederati.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

also, deponite, or rotate would either work, or in the singular if you wish, for wheeling movements. Rotare (Rotant) is used in one obscure text fragment to describe two oxen yolked rounding a corner, it was most likely describing what we think of as a military wheel i.e. a pivot point, and an outside guide.