Quivers

[ROMan]

No idea Robert, try and find photos of the archer auxiliaries, it may be them. I used leather thong because it is tougher and more durable than linen thread. Doubtless Robert (the other one!) had the same idea.

These guys?
[attachment=7890]crop_of_086_Conrad_Cichorius_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianssule_Tafel_LXXXVI.jpg[/attachment]

[ROMan]

This Sarmatian seems to have a similar bow as that in the drawing.

[ROMan]

This website on the column has some useful pics: http://arts.st-andrews.ac.uk/trajans-col...9-5-cpd-3/

The first attachment has what I believe I have seen elsewhere described as a Syrian archer. Like the archers in the other image they have no arm-guards, but are carrying what look to me like ancient Greek hunting quivers that have a lid!

The second attachment has different archers, also described as "Eastern", that have what seem to be open-topped quivers, although one is far too small and the other is on the wrong side.

[ROMan]

The base of Trajan's column has some interesting quivers, I assume they are Dacian or Sarmatian. The drawings of them by Piranesi are artist's impressions of an artist's impression but are rather interesting. It *looks* as though these quivers are attached to the straps by a single ring fixed to one of the bands around the quiver. I don't quite see how that would work for a back-quiver, but it would work for a side-quiver or a saddle-quiver. Like the Dura depictions they are cylindrical, with decoration in bands which also seem to be structural. They have an interesting flap of softer material, possibly to cover the fletching in the rain? This might not be needed so much in Syria!

[Paul Elliott]

I like that little detail of the leather cloth that can be pulled up to cover the fletchings to protect them from rain....

[ROMan]

I like that little detail of the leather cloth that can be pulled up to cover the fletchings to protect them from rain....

Yes, it looks dagged, perhaps deliberately, or perhaps it is a piece of sheepskin? There doesn't seem to be anything like that on the Syrian quivers. I was thinking about the ring attachments. Perhaps they are like the sword attachments of the period, and there were actually two, but they would not both be visible except for at the back? They could not be each side because the quiver would be too wide and would get bent. It might explain why the ring is vertically mounted. Of course by the mid-3rd century swords were hung by scabbard slides, so perhaps it would not be accurate for Dura!

I have attached an image of a Nydam quiver that seems to have had metal fittings associated with it (a buckle and strap-end) does not seem to have had rings (unless the excavators missed them, or the possibly ferrous metal did not survive).

[Paul Elliott]

That was a good find!

[Robert Vermaat]

No idea Robert, try and find photos of the archer auxiliaries, it may be them. I used leather thong because it is tougher and more durable than linen thread. Doubtless Robert (the other one!) had the same idea.

I did? (sorry couln't resist)

[Paul Elliott]

No idea Robert, try and find photos of the archer auxiliaries, it may be them. I used leather thong because it is tougher and more durable than linen thread. Doubtless Robert (the other one!) had the same idea.

I did? (sorry couln't resist)

Robert Wimmers, you know who I mean!!

[ROMan]

No idea Robert, try and find photos of the archer auxiliaries, it may be them. I used leather thong because it is tougher and more durable than linen thread. Doubtless Robert (the other one!) had the same idea.

I did? (sorry couln't resist)

Robert Wimmers, you know who I mean!!

There *are* a lot of us, I had noticed!

Going back to the earlier post (http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/20-roma...ivers.html) on late Roman quivers, one of those depictions *also* look as though they have the straps attached to a ring (or something).

[ROMan]

Attached are three interesting images.

The first is from the Temple of Mithras in Dura-Europos. Assuming accurate depiction, it is clear that in this image the quiver hangs from the saddle (there are no straps going the human's body). To hang vertically like this I would assume the quiver would need to be hung nearer to it's centre of gravity than it would be if it was attached at the top, and if it was attached at the top the skirting of the tunic would be interfered with. This would suggest to me that it was hung from about the same point as the Trajan column base quivers.

The second is a Sasanian silver plate, and in this hi-rez image it can be seen that the quiver is attached to the belt. Of course, it would have to be (see what he is riding?), but assuming that it is acceptable to depict the shah an shah without a quiver (he clearly isn't actually doing any archery), it is there for a practical reason. It seems to be attached to two points on the quiver, near the top, and is tied to the belt.

The third is a drawing from Simon James book on the Dura finds, This shows the general appearance of Dura quivers, but the one on the left shows the straps, which *could* be attached anywhere, but there seems to be two straps, and it *seems* that one, at least, comes out at the level of a band around the quiver, at about the same height as the Trajan's column quivers.

[Alanus]

Thanks for this. Would it be possible for you to post your arm-guard image? I found an image once, and made an arm-guard based on it, and lost the reference! Although the Dura archers were probably thumb-draw guys, *my* archers are all finger-pullers!

Hello, Robert

You mention the thumb draw. As far as I know, no thumb rings have been found in Sarmatian graves, nor do I think the Romans used them. They were used by the Mongols, Chinese, and Koreans... and maybe the Huns but I doubt it. I think Simonenko believed some Sarmatians used the thumb draw, and he shows thumb rings, also claiming some were found at Duro Europa. But the Duro artifacts are open to debate as to whether they were actual thumb rings. Personally, I believe the Mediterranean draw was nearly universal from Scythians and early Persians to late Romans and Sarmatians/Alans.

As for quivers, they don't wear well at belt level and impede marching and manouvering. Over the shoulder at a cant works well for a man on his feet, and that's how I wear and use mine. mile:

[ROMan]

You mention the thumb draw. As far as I know, no thumb rings have been found in Sarmatian graves, nor do I think the Romans used them. They were used by the Mongols, Chinese, and Koreans... and maybe the Huns but I doubt it. I think Simonenko believed some Sarmatians used the thumb draw, and he shows thumb rings, also claiming some were found at Duro Europa. But the Duro artifacts are open to debate as to whether they were actual thumb rings. Personally, I believe the Mediterranean draw was nearly universal from Scythians and early Persians to late Romans and Sarmatians/Alans.

As for quivers, they don't wear well at belt level and impede marching and manouvering. Over the shoulder at a cant works well for a man on his feet, and that's how I wear and use mine. mile:

Thanks for this. I had a quick look at Simon James' book on the Dura finds, and Cat # 652 is certainly an archer's thumb ring, made of bone. Bronze finds of an identical nature are well known in the Middle East, but typically are not from good contexts, and although are often described as "Roman" on the market could just as easily be Mediaeval (I was looking through a collection of Iron Age bronzes from Iran in my museum once and "found" a good mediaeval archer's ring which had been miss-identified: dealers would always rather say things are older than they are). I tend to assume that the later Roman Imperial Syrian archers use the same approaches to most things as Early Mediaeval Syrians do unless evidence indicates otherwise. Of course, I'm not saying you are wrong! Maybe ancient archers had much tougher forearms than we do? I certainly never see them using finger protection.

Regarding the quiver, you should know that I never intend to march with my quiver! I am working on the equipment of a horse-archer from Dura-Europos, and as far as I am aware the only evidence for back-quivers is a single graffiti from Dura which *may* depict such a thing (I have attached Simon James' drawing). The overwhelming number of quiver depictions have it hung from the saddle, or in the case of slightly later Sasanian depictions where they seem to have largely identical quivers hung from the belt at times. I suppose what I intend to depict is a Dura horse archer in camp dress doing a bit of archery practice without his horse.

[ROMan]

Here is another nice pic of a Sasanian, notice the quiver hanging from the belt and the thumb-draw. I fancy that this quiver would be very awkward when not on a horse, but there is actually very little evidence that Sasanians ever got off of their horses.

[ROMan]

I did a Google search for more information (it's the weekend, eh?) on rings, and found this: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/20-roman-re...0&start=45

I love archery talk. One poster suggested there was evidence of Roman thumb rings found in England! So I googled for that and found: http://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/sho...ductid=993

I'd have to wonder about the context, tho, since they don't say.