Roman religious practices and the Catholic Mass

[Tarbicus]

Have you thought of setting up a Religion subforum, that is only accessible through logging in, registration being through Mod approval only, and only real names may be used?

Absolutely strict rules, no quarter given, and the login page has the rules spelled out in big text above the login fields. By signing in you agree to the rules, and have no right to complain when you are kicked from the subforum for breaking them.

Unfortunately (or probably fortunately, you know what I mean), early Christianity is pretty much a given part of ancient Rome, especially the later the period, and it seems a shame for it to be such a touchy and avoided subject. Questions posed like the one that started this thread are actually interesting.

If RAT does start a Byzantine subforum the issue will need to be addressed anyway.

Perhaps a system of membership could be one whereby the only people allowed to login to it are those with enough posts, or have been members for a certain amount of time? That should avoid trolls and the like who won't have the patience or attention span to spoil the whole thing. Make it clear that if the subforum becomes unmanageable and unruly it will be shutdown, end of...

Perhaps even the threads themselves could be voted on whether to be started or not through taking a poll of the members? Suggestions could be made as to the subjects, and they are listed in a poll. The number of threads could therefore be limited, making it very difficult for an individual to start an errant thread that could inflame, and very focused discussions be held.

Just a thought.

[JRSCline]

Those are good thoughts, Jim, thanks. I know the staff will consider your suggestions.

Andy, please don't feel bad, or like you have to censor yourself. No one thinks you meant any harm by posing the question. It's just that modern religious discussions are, by long-established convention, really not appropriate here. People can be very sensitive about their faith, and it's easy for misunderstandings to create bitterness and antagonisms that seep into other areas of the forum.

It's great to talk about ancient religious practices, but when it crosses into the modern-day, things often go sour.

Let's see where the thread goes for now, and see what the staff has to say. There was a complaint made and a ruling is needed, after deliberation. No one is going to be whacked with a vitis, though!

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Jim,

very interesting thoughts!

Creating a ‘normal’ subforum, open to the public, should be necessary but sufficient. (There are users, too, who only want to read a topic).

Unfortunately (or probably fortunately, you know what I mean), early Christianity is pretty much a given part of ancient Rome, especially the later the period, and it seems a shame for it to be such a touchy and avoided subject.
(…)If RAT does start a Byzantine subforum the issue will need to be addressed anyway.

Absolutely right. Religion was a ‘normal’ topic in ancient times – with all problems connected to it. Believers of any kind, Christians included, always had to bear critics and being offended. Personally, I can talk directly to someone who posted something ‘crude’ or off limits, always thinking he/she had good intentions. Or I can leave the discussion silently – RAT is vast. And I know, that in the ‘good old ‘days there were different types of living Christianity. Most letters of the apostle Paul are addressed to early Christian communities, who suffered factionalism or misunderstanding. Because people were and are not perfect. And some who sailed under Christian colours were no ‘good guys’ at all, even from the ancient point of view.

So blinding out Religion or Christianity means overshooting. Restricted access due to number of posts or certain amount of membership won’t be practical. Posts are easily increase by mini-statements. And who wants to write dissertations in other topics, only to achieve enough laudes points just to be granted permission to ‘religion’ one day? And nothing against polls – but that’s a very inflexible and slow way.

Absolutely strict rules, no quarter given, and the login page has the rules spelled out in big text above the login fields.

That sounds perfect. I suggest a special MOD (-team) for that subforum reacting quick and clear by editing or moving/merging topics. If something is mistakable, off limits or offending, the MODs should edit the special post and either give the user the chance to do up or admonish him/her. Or shut the topic down. I’ll always prefer the sure instinct of a MOD to an ‘automatically’ procedure (and won’t expect a censor or inquisitor).

A rough suggestion to special rules:

Avoid any connections or conclusions to modern ways of theology, faith, religions or churches and living persons.

Keep in mind that (like today) ancient people or communities were individuals and no perfect samples of a worldwide kind and therefore not necessarily might have been representatives of all others (including their successors through the centuries).

Refer to historical details and evidence. Serious historians, ancient sources and photographs of original finds are recommended. Use terms in their ancient context.

Keep in mind that special ancient terms or points of view may be very different compared to modern or even medieval times.

Try to discuss from the ancient people’s point of view. Avoid unknowingly rewriting history by implying modern theological opinions or standards.

Always presume that other members don’t intend to offend you – if something might be mistakable or doubtable, please keep cool, friendly and enquire or add additional information.

Any persons, who really could have been personally offended are now gone since at least 1500 years :wink:

[Comerus Gallus]

.......

[Ebusitanus]

I really do not see why such things need to get tip toed around. Its not like the RCC will crumble into dust because 2000 years ago some rite was adapted and given a new meaning. Its the message what counts not the drappings IMHO.

[john m roberts]

Not ritual but:
The Pope retains the title "Pontifex Maximus."
The bishop's crook closely resembles the lituus of the augurs.
Many details of Christian feasts and festivals retain the aspects of the pagan festivals they supplanted: the Yule log, Christmas tree, the green and red colors of Christmas, Easter eggs (the word Easter comes from the name of a pagan goddess) and many others.
Years ago I saw a documentary on the Easter ceremony practiced by the Coptic Christians in Ethiopia. It greatly resembled the ancient Adonis rituals in Greece and Asia Minor, only practiced by all instead of by women alone.
Otherwise, Christian ceremonies bear little resemblance to their pagan precursors, if only because the latter always centered upon animal sacrifice. If you are looking for a genuine amalgam, study voudon and santeria, which do mix Christianity with polytheism and animal sacrifice. As Roman Catholicism becomes increasingly dominant in Africa, that could be the wave of the future for the church.

[Theodosius the Great]

I agree with what John wrote above. Earlier, I guess I jumped the gun a bit since I thought maybe this discussion was eluding to the actual Liturgy of the Mass. The Liturgy seems to have originated in Antioch but was/is 100% Biblically based - in fact, most of it comes from the Old Testament.

In the bigger scope, (Latin) Roman Catholicism as it is known today originated mainly from North Africa - the area of and around Carthage, home to great Christians like Augustine and his followers. Ironically, that was the Christianity that took root in Western Europe whereas today those great men are forgotten in their own homelands where Christianity is practically non-existent. Remember that in Italy the Church was Greek-speaking for the first two-hundred years. Of course, the Greek-speaking East never studied Augustine and consider him to be a heretic b/c he wrote that the fate of the Church doesn't lie with the survival of any culture or nation - it stands on its own. For the Orthodox, the Empire was inseparably tied to the Christian faith. But that's another story.

I apologize if I seemed over-defensive earlier to anyone.


Theo