04-03-2009, 05:24 AM
As I said, I would not wish to get into yet another digression on the subject of peltasts/thureophoroi, but....
Ruben wrote:
....it is generally reckoned that all three manuals -Ascepiodotus,Aelian and Arrian are drawing on a common single source - sometimes thought to be Poybius lost section on this subject, but the source is more likely Posidonius. Asclepiodotus is mentioned by Seneca as being a follower of Posidonius, and both Aelian and Arrian refer to him.
Arrian says:" ....Light troops (psiloi) are the exact opposite in having no body armour,shield,greaves or helmet, but being trained to the use of missiles, arrows, javelins and stones slung or by hand..."
Aelian says:"...on the contrary the light infantry (psiloi) are equipped in the least cumbersome way; they wear neither a coat of mail, nor greaves, nor the heavier kinds of shields; but they use missile weapons, either arrows shot from bows or darts/javelins or else stones thrown from slings or with the hand...."
but elsewhere: "...the equipment of the foot-soldiers is of three kinds - some are completely armed, some just have shields, and some are light-armed troops( psiloi). The completely armed soldiers wear the heaviest armour of all; after the Macedonian manner their shields are round and their pikes are long..."
Clearly, these three 'classes' of troops are the broadest of generalisations. All three manuals say that the 'light/ medium' troops carry a shield lighter or smaller than the round shield of the heavy armed, which whilst it may be true of the argive aspis, isn't true of a Macedonian Phalanx who carry a species of pelta !
If we follow the manuals broad generalisation of 'light/medium'(peltastoi) as being troops who can skirmish in open order, or, thanks to having shields/helmets/some armour can also fight hand-to-hand ( though not able to withstand heavy-armed infantry) then Thureophoroi fall into this category, and are the natural successors to greek peltasts - the original ones. Which isn't to say that the pelta, if defined as simply 'light shield' had disappeared - it continued in use, no doubt, among other peoples but it appears to have been supplanted by the 'thureos', which also replaces the aspis among Greek mercenaries, so that instead of 'mercenary peltasts' and 'mercenary hoplites' as separate types, we now hear only of 'mistophoroi'(mercenaries) as a single category......
Ruben wrote:
Quote:I should first note that I am only working from Asclepiodotus, as I think that his manual is the only one that can be verifiably linked to any true Hellenistic military practice
....it is generally reckoned that all three manuals -Ascepiodotus,Aelian and Arrian are drawing on a common single source - sometimes thought to be Poybius lost section on this subject, but the source is more likely Posidonius. Asclepiodotus is mentioned by Seneca as being a follower of Posidonius, and both Aelian and Arrian refer to him.
Arrian says:" ....Light troops (psiloi) are the exact opposite in having no body armour,shield,greaves or helmet, but being trained to the use of missiles, arrows, javelins and stones slung or by hand..."
Aelian says:"...on the contrary the light infantry (psiloi) are equipped in the least cumbersome way; they wear neither a coat of mail, nor greaves, nor the heavier kinds of shields; but they use missile weapons, either arrows shot from bows or darts/javelins or else stones thrown from slings or with the hand...."
but elsewhere: "...the equipment of the foot-soldiers is of three kinds - some are completely armed, some just have shields, and some are light-armed troops( psiloi). The completely armed soldiers wear the heaviest armour of all; after the Macedonian manner their shields are round and their pikes are long..."
Clearly, these three 'classes' of troops are the broadest of generalisations. All three manuals say that the 'light/ medium' troops carry a shield lighter or smaller than the round shield of the heavy armed, which whilst it may be true of the argive aspis, isn't true of a Macedonian Phalanx who carry a species of pelta !
If we follow the manuals broad generalisation of 'light/medium'(peltastoi) as being troops who can skirmish in open order, or, thanks to having shields/helmets/some armour can also fight hand-to-hand ( though not able to withstand heavy-armed infantry) then Thureophoroi fall into this category, and are the natural successors to greek peltasts - the original ones. Which isn't to say that the pelta, if defined as simply 'light shield' had disappeared - it continued in use, no doubt, among other peoples but it appears to have been supplanted by the 'thureos', which also replaces the aspis among Greek mercenaries, so that instead of 'mercenary peltasts' and 'mercenary hoplites' as separate types, we now hear only of 'mistophoroi'(mercenaries) as a single category......
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
