The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[PMBardunias]

The frontage doesn't change when the formation moves from 8 to 4 ranks deep, so no help if being outflanked.

You are starting from an assumption that Xenophon's drill was the only, or even the dominant method. I am merely saying that having the ability to cut files in half, with an appropriate command structure allows something like countermarching the rear half of your unit off to your flank. A case could be made that the countermarching of the whole rear half of a unit next to the front half which is already in close order is more simple than doubling by half-files. I am merely showing that there are many alternatives and not enough evidence to chose from.

So because the evidence is sparse, you ignore it and 'hang your hat' on.....what? Something for which there is no evidence at all ! Surely we must work with what evidence we do have?

No, I say that we cannot know based on the evidence. We don't even have reason to suspect that there was a "standard" drill. Each method could have been used at seperate times/places.

We have no evidence of early 5th c hoplites and hoplites not versed in the spartan drill system doing anything by lining up and charging.
No direct descriptions, certainly, but plenty of inferences of the troops being well ordered....consider the Spartans and Tegeans sitting/crouching in their ranks until the order to charge is given at Plataea. These are disciplined troops, being controlled by their Officers ( until the Tegeans lose control under fire), not a mob, or tribal muster! Consider the authors continued emphasis on 'good order' etc etc.The Athenians at and Plataeans tactical plan and 'good order' at Marathon....and many other examples too numerous to mention. All of this requires drill of some sort.

Do you believe that Homer's Myrmidons, who fought in close order, used this drill? Surely as I said, many close ordered troop types over the centuries managed this without drill, simply well ordered mobs. If everyone knows where to stand, they can appear quite orderly. No drill required.

I have previously sent you Xenophon's drill descriptions, with diagrams, and explanations of how they likely worked. You have never refuted this, nor come up with any alternate explanation, or reported any errors. So far, any alternatives, such as those you now refer to above turn out be incompatible with what Xenophon describes - which is quite simple and straightforward, and could be learnt in an hour by amateur militia (unlike the sophisticated Hellenistic drills for Professional troops)

I agree completely with your reconstruction of Xenophon's drill. It is clear that the mercenaries with him did it this way. It might perhaps represent Spartan methodology of the 5th c. But surely it is a leap to say it was only done this way or that is was done this way during those period of hoplite warfare.

Can you be specific? If you are again relying on Hellenistic manuals...... Describe how light troops withdraw in the context of Xenophon's drill system,

Surely cavalry did not retreat through 6' spaces between files. This means that when they went back through a phalanx it was because the phalanx opened by countermarching a section of the line back behind another. The same can be done for light troops.

Now you are quoting my own ideas back at me! Don't forget that in this discusion, my position is that the 'Hoplite phalanx revolution' occurred probably in the 8th or late 7th century B.C. with the switch from central handgrip circular shields, to 'porpax' held ones, and that the 'phalanx Warfare' that emerged evolved continually down to Hellenistic times, and that the basis of it's drills was carried out by files throughout.

I know a good source when I see it! I have no quarrel at all with the way you describe Xenophon's doubling as A means of forming hoplites. I simply have a problem saying it is The way based on so little evidence and in the face of all the instances of group countermarching and Aelian's diverse drill systems. Also in light of the many cultures who form phalanx-like groups and shield-walls without doubling by files.