The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[PMBardunias]

Xenophon gives full detail of the Drill for this. (Xen Cyropaedia II.3.21) Xenophon (Constitution XI.4) also gives a less detailed account of the drill of a Spartan enomotia (platoon) of 36 forming up in single file, and "threes" (i.e. three files of 12 - the files of Spartans are often described as 12 deep) which then halve into "sixes" ( the enomotia in close order is 6x6 ). That 'open' to 'close' order is referred to here is certain, because we are told "the phalanx becomes thinner or deeper" i.e. the frontage does not expand or contract.

Again the account of them forming in “6” is so that they can go to dinner!!! At a buffet depth is less important than on the battlefield. I think you corrupt his meaning in the “Lak. constitution”. Below is the text: Xen. Const. Lac. 11

“The men so equipped were divided into six regiments of cavalry and infantry. The officers of each citizen regiment comprise one colonel, four captains, eight first lieutenants and sixteen second lieutenants. These regiments at the word of command form sections4 sometimes (two), sometimes three, and sometimes six abreast. [5] “

There is no implication here that they must always double down to 6. In fact it seems to me to read that they can choose to form in 2, 3, or 6 files as need be. You fall into a logical fallacy in that if you are going to double down to 6, your three files need space between them. This is not the case if you have no intention of doubling beyond the file of 12, but instead form these 12 man files in close order. Nothing could be simpler, and you can form in any depth from 50+ to two.

Just so! Marathon will have taught a lesson indeed to Greeks....don't thin your Phalanx against Asiatics, or it might get broken through ! 'Normal' formations then are what we might expect to see rather than especially 'thinned' ones.......confirming Xenophon, that fighting in 'half-files' of four was 'normal/customary/the Rule'

My friend that is Olympic quality mental gymnastics! :lol: How does showing that thin line failed prove that Xenophon’s line were 4 deep- quite thin! Surely you don’t believe that the center at marathon was two deep and the wings were 4???

...there are innumerable videos around of riots etc showing a thin police line successfully resisting the 'shove' of demonstrators much deeper. Significantly, once the parties are armed there is generally no 'shoving' but rather a 'stand-off' distance between the two forces equal to 'weapon's reach' and sparring takes place at this distance.....

I’m not going to argue this yet again. For the lurkers, an intitial charge of a group of men of any size can be stopped by a line of a few men who stand in tight formation. The reason is that the attacking groups cannot be as well coordinated and the pushing force of each subsequent man does not add to the total force simultaneously. What occurs is that each new man hits a moment after the first has been stopped, so it is like a series of one man strikes. Crowd pushing is very different, the people are already in a tight block and any pushing done by members of the group in the same direction does add up simultaneously.

The first is like spraying a wall with 5 lbs of BBs, while the crowd is like hitting it with a 5lb sledge hammer. The result is very different.

Take a look back at your videos and you will see that the crowd is not pushing in any coordinated manner, nor is it likely to be at full “crowd” density.

Agreed - perhaps one should speak of 'active' participation and 'passive' participation.....but you sure as Heck don't need 11/16ths of your force to achieve this effect!! ( morale boosting and physically blocking retreat).

See, you, like me, disagree with Cawkwell, Goldsworthy, et al. The answer, of course, is that there was a literal pushing, othismos phase that required depth. :wink:


Hence the original question: "The Macedonian Phalanx; Why so deep?"

My answer: On the evidence we have, the best answer is that Greek and Macedonian files, whether 8,12 or 16 deep ( and rarely 10) did not normally fight as files, but rather as half-files, thus the Macedonian phalanx generally would have fought 8 deep, with 5/8 of the soldiers actively participating with their weapons, and 3/8ths passively participating in support.

I have no problem with that as a possibilty for sarissa armed macedonians formed in 16 x 16 blocks, for whom the tactical manuals and Cynocephalae show they can be very flexible in their deployment and their interpersonal spacing even after deployment. I simply believe you are wrong to transpose it back onto greek hoplites and purport that all of the depth figures that we are given refer to the penultimate deployment as opposed to the more obvious, logical, and meaningful final combat deployment.

In fact if you could prove that the Speira were forming in the penultimate double for combat, I think that it would have interesting implications. The differences between the hoplite phalanx and the sarissa phalanx have never been fully explored to my satisfaction. Perhaps an extra 3' of space is beneficial when the men are weilding such long spears. Surely the reach of multiple sarissa beyond the front lines midigates the hazards of fighting in opened order.