The Makedonian phalanx -- why such depth?

[Macedon]

This is not correct. You don’t “stop in time” because you see the enemy ranks; you stop in time because you watch the back of the man in front of you slow down. This is obvious from a traffic example. You don’t look ahead to the accident to know when to stop in the line of cars in a jam, but at the decelerating car right in front of you. Because the ability of the person in front of you to slow down is similar to your ability to slow down, all you need is enough time to perceive that he is slowing down so you can match it- a few paces will do.

Maybe you misunderstood me here. When I say "a good distance" I mean one, one and a half yards or so. And in such a distance it is impossible to understand when your frontman will collide with the enemy to stop in time (especially if you are a fourth ranker or more to the back). In your analogy, should you drive a car with 60 (20) mph, keep a distance of 3 (1) yards from the car in front and suddenly this car crushes (not even breaks) into a wall, I doubt you will be able to do anything else than just crash on it yourself. But then this would be the whole point if you would like to bring down the wall...Yet, 8 uncoordinated collisions against the wall don't really add to the force. Should the cars touch each other in the first place during the impact, it is another story. Since you also agre that normally there was a "doratismos" phase before any other, I think we are in agreement that at least on the run, there would be no "othismos" from a hoplite phalanx.

4) The only way to add the force of subsequent ranks to the forward push is to minimize the interval of impacts to the point where the mass acts as single entity- this is what we call a “crowd” (a specific meaning here referring to a lack of space between men). In this state force can transfer forward through ranks, so even small force of forward pressure by each man simply leaning forward and transferring his weight to the man in front adds up quickly to be a stronger forward pushing force than an individual impact of a running man. Just as important, this force is sustained, not an impact.

Exactly my point. 8 men shoving at the same time shouting in rhythm (en (prepare) dio (shove) (Of course these are numbers, just trying to show the effect D )) can really exert enough physical force to push an enemy line, especially if it is not in perfect condition. Yet, I don't like the sustained pressure model for it becomes uncontrollable in the first ranks. I prefer to view it as a series of controlled pushes, which gradually push back the opponent without endangering the cohesion of the phalanx. These could go on like for minutes, but in controlled stages. It seems to me that your use of the word "crowd" is misleading. Crowds are uncontrolled, indisciplined, uncoordinated. Thus your theory (at least in the beginning) sounds as complete chaos through the ranks, with every man shoving the back of his frontman without caring whether he marches too far from his sidemen and into the enemy lines.

5) This basic form of a crowd leaning forward takes absolutely no training and happens all the time when people are in mass- sometimes with fatal results. Force can be increased if the crowd moves rhythmically to push/lean in unison and this will benefit from training to move in rhythm-i.e. group dances of the sort we know were common in Greece.

Of course, but an untrained mass would not engage in such tactics, there would be no point, unless it was itself pushed back, unfamiliar with "othismos" (whatever it might exactly be), so the back ranks would just try to keep their lines shoving the front ranks. Should they be completely unaware, some would backstep, some would not and the line would lose its order (although to exploit that the advancing army should not lose its own order). Yet we are discussing hoplite tactics now, so I think we both agree that however othismos looked like, the hoplites must have rehearsed and trained at it.

Each man adds some fraction of his body weight. Special pushing stances are less important than cohesion. The point is to transfer as much of your weight/pushing force to the man in front of you while keeping the absolute minimal distance between you and he (and the man behind you). This will dictate just how wide a range of “stances” men can assume because there is a trade-off between pushing and being close enough to transfer efficiently. You’ll note that this requirement becomes less important as you move back in rank and by the last rank. The front ranks add more force by simply standing up and transferring the force of 7-11 men behind them than they would if they adopted a stance that interfered with this transfer no matter how hard they push individually. Rear rank men have no such restriction and they should be pushing as hard as they can and in any stance that maximized pushing. One of the reenactors on here tried a collision of one man against a line standing at minimal distance. It worked perfectly as a proof of concept. When the foe ran into the front rank, the rear rank man was knocked back on his butt. I should have told them that the rear ranker needs to brace and not stand up, but the force transferred fluidly through the mass of men just like in a “Newton’s cradle”

The problem with that principal (Newton's cradle) is that the front ball has the exact force the first ball exerts. This means that if only one or two rear rankers actually push while the mid and front ranks stand in cohesion in stances unable to exert any real force, then the final force exerted will be this of two men only. There is little point in pinning yourself against the enemy, unable to fight or defend to exert the same force that you and your epistates would if trained to cooperate in proper stances. Of course, some force can be added by the interim ranks, but the exact effect you describe, produced be men with proper stances, trained to do so, would multiply its efficiency to such an effect that short shoves would be necessary to keep advancing and not getting trampled by your own "crowd". Actually, the data you give about the pushing force in relation with body angle suggests the assumption of propser stances, as I supprt. Your last observation is correct, yet it proves that withstanding pressure (if you are trained at this) is easier and safer than to exert it, if the process of pushing is uncontrolled.

The enemy cannot kneel and will find it difficult to fall even in death when the push is at its height. He will only fall when pressure decreases, as it does rhythmically, and when that occurs the promachos is no longer being thrust forward so forcibly. The key to this, and perhaps the hardest part to grasp, is that othismos cannot occur unopposed. There will never be a case like the experiment I wrote of above where a man can run into a phalanx in this density because it will only be at this density in reaction to another phalanx being also at this density.

Exactly. Should the enemy train to oppose the effects of an uncontrolled othismos, then the whole process is disadvantageous to the pusher. The enemy though (should he choose to, train to, fight with his rearman a yard away and just lose balance from the shock) can kneel or fall and an uncontrolled push would most possibly make the protostates of the pushing line fall. (a friend (expert in martial arts, among which pangration) once suggested that the front rankers might also brace just before the othismos to keep their line, but should this have happened, it would crop up in a text or two and when we tried it, we found out that it was very difficult and problematic due to the fact that the free hand should firmly grasp the shield arm and the angles produced were just not very helpful. We did not dismiss it though as a theory..). One more observation is that in order to forcibly push you do not judge what the opposition force is. Should it decrease, the back ranks, the real pushers in your model would never know it until it would be too late. In their minds, they would just march forward pushing and would not know when to stop. Should they try to, it would again lead to chaos, for some would judge they should lessen their pressure, some would keep pushing thinking they routed their opponents, some would stop too soon and the line would lose its formation. You cannot leave such decisions to the judgement of the individual filecloser. 1000 files would mean 1000 different opinions as to when to stop, lessen, increase pushing force. In a matter of seconds, the line would be no more (should the push be successful!). Actually I agree that such effects would occur in a battle, when you or the enemy would force such a situation but I want to believe that this was not the famed othismos, but a "crowd" effect of too much density.

No advance beyond a shuffle is possible in this density- just as no retreat beyond a shuffle is possible at this density. They cannot take 5 quick steps back any faster than you can take 5 steps forward. When one side routs, breaking from the rear, then both sides loosen their order.

Only if the enemy is as strong as you, fights in dense files (not ranks) and pushes back. Should the enemy sidestep (reenacted that and proved a very successful anti-pushing technique), instantly or partially deploy in open order (with dense files and drawn swords), thus effectively doubling its depth (maybe the first 3 ranks) while every second enemy file would in a glimpse lose its balance, things are different. Most times we rehearsed uncontrolled othismos (crowd effect, prolonged blind pushing, running charge etc), the attackers found themselves in worse positions than the defenders.

Not sure what you mean by “right overlap”. In terms of keeping order there is little difference, though right-over-left is a little stronger, but for other reasons I think right-over-left superior.

Actually there is much difference between a "right-over-left" and a "left-over-right" overlap of shields. Although most reliefs we have suggest the first to be prominent, I think that this is the case only during march, for it facilitates movement. It allows you to "open" your shield and strike from that opening and also to just hold your shield on the side and march with ease and speed. On the other hand, a "left-over-right" overlap does not allow you to open yourself, since it is locked from the right and so you cannot push your shield to the side, does not allow you to step in front of the line and thus facilitates cohesion. In my model of othismos, it also adds to the push of the man to your right, for it adds to shoulder and arm movement and stops his forward movement by "pushing" him rightwards, (a very important fact when considering the principles of line advancement) whereas the former style pushes your shield to the left and allows individuals to be shoven off the line. This you should definitely try with friends. Even trying it with bear arms makes the differences visible.

It could last for a very long time. I just put some data on my blog recorded from a concert where huge pressures were recorded for 85 minutes- causing many to be removed from the crowd for medical reasons. My guess is that it lasted for a period of some time and if one side did not give way, the two sides loosened up like two weary wrestlers- perhaps back to the 4-5’ or so between phalanxes that was conducive to doratismos. Then the whole thing cycled again.

So, how did they disengage? A command? I am sure that in that concert you are referring to people also wanted to disengage but the mass didn't (mostly because the pressure is not applied to all equally, but to only certain unlucky individuals). I cannot imagine your model working like that, for it would demand a simultaneous decisions by both sides. Should one side recoil, the other one would only be motivated to push harder, for the enemy would be giving in. Once engaged as your model suggests, it is, to my opinion, not possible to disengage, since any such attempt would encourage the other side.

As you see, lots of pushing by individuals and even groups, very close to othismos. Hoplites could surely fight at this less dense formation as well. The key is that they can take it further- hoplites can go to 11

Of course there was individual pushing by troops fighting in irregular formations. They tried to hack at their enemies and his shieldwalls stood in the way... But nowhere in this text is a mass or even by unit push described. Only individual efforts of some warriors to push the shield of the enemy aside and open a gap to hack at him, a battle between ordered troops and irregular barbarians. To withstand the first onslaught, Romans (and many others) , tightened their first three ranks (as Arrian orders in his Ektaxis kat' Alanon) to receive a charge at run. Btw, what do you mean by "less dense formation"? I guess you mean the barbarian density?

Being crushed in a crowd like a sardine is pretty orderly, so this is no problem. Withstanding and exerting pressure is exactly the same thing in othismos. It is interesting that you “see” the need for order and cohesion for “withstanding’ but don’t realize the same rules apply for “exerting” in mass. They are the same. Here's an image done by one of our RAT members that I advised on. It shows how I envision many elements, most important how they could still fight in the press:

But I do! My model does not refuse othismos. It just suggests that it was done orderly, after a certain order was given and was performed in segments of 1-2 rhythmical steps. This could end up pushing the enemy line a hundred yards in a matter of minutes (btw, the image only shows 1-3 ranks of Spartans at doratismos. Did you intend to direct me to another image?).

They could move quickly into othismos with very little wait to re-order, but that would require a slow, very ordered march, probably to the sound of flutes, and would result in you enemy sometimes running away either before contact or quickly after because they cannot match your order as fast. It helps to wear red when you do this. :wink:

Yes it does, doesn't it? :lol: :lol:

This is “common knowledge” but not true. You can find a football player to push as hard and as skilfully as he wishes and I can block him with a group of cheerleaders if they form a crowd. You need depth and/or coordination. That fact that a single man cannot break into formed men is evidence of this. Some minimal depth is needed because each man is pushing less than he would were he in a stance as you describe, but by being close they can add their pushing force while a group trying to push as individuals cannot. Thus if we graphed it out over different phalanx depths, you’d see an initial benefit to all out pushing which then starts to lose to the crowd-like group as more men are added.

Now add 8 football players coordinating their push in small steps... I do not disagree with the push of the ranks. I just support that it was done in small segments, so that the front ranks would not lose their balance and cohesion. Cohesion is not about files but ranks. Hoplites would strive to keep a line, so a forward march of one step would drive the enemy back and not break the line. After that another step... should the enemy get too packed to efficiently withstand pressure, they would try to advance 2 steps and so on. A line that is not in a receive pressure stance will see its rear ranks being shoven off and to the ground as you suggested, before they would get back to line, another push would bring down more men, since the depth of the formation now would be even more shallow. In a matter of minutes, a line which is not trained to withstand such a push will crumble and no disadvantage would come to the pushing line, nor should there be any opposition for this drill to work.
Why do you think that pushing in segments is difficult, complex or less effective than doing the same thing for a sustained time? It would allow for the line to assume pressure exerting and withstanding stance and maintain it too.

Not a reenactor, perhaps for Marathon though. Training is always a benefit, but the beauty of othismos is that it allows the maximum use of less well trained troops.

Oh.. you should do some reenacting...Most people do it to see themselves dressed up in front of a mirror, but to those who wish to evaluate certain details about warfare, it is an invaluable experience.

You fight him as any heavy infantry would. The hoplite was quite capable of fighting outside of the pushing of phalanx combat. Othismos is simply a phase of battle, one that need not be achieved in all cases. It is after one side gives way that all of the ‘martial arts’ taught by hoplomachoi can be brought into play.

Of course you do... the question was about how would the pusher know it and stop his shoving... According to the "crowd" effect, the first ranks of the attacking line would just lose their balance and fall down. But I already posed this question above

Or never, or almost immediately if you are a Spartan or perhaps being led by Pelopidas.

Why "almost immediately" if you are Spartan? I am not aware of any such references. :?: And, if you are suggesting it needs some preparation to be employed en mass, then there should be a command given, shouldn't there?

You could spear fence for hours and never do it. “Full force” needs defining in this context, because each individual need not produce much force, it is the aggregate that is important.

Again I agree. It seems we mostly disagree on the time scale employed.