Makedonian Armour

[geala]

Stones are normally not razor sharp and heavy thorns are a big problem also for guys in sandals. And if you are used to go barefoot the soles of the feet are normally so strong that sharp stones, many kind of thorns, sharp metall parts, broken glas or bees and wasps don't bother.

I just watched a report about the excavation of the grave of Tutenchamun. Many of the Egypt workers in the original picture went barefoot although the ground was surely very hot and the surface often very itchy. Some time ago I watched a report about a tribe in Indonesia living a bit like in the stone age. In one scene a few barefoot men bore a heavy boat over a field of nasty looking stones: they went as easily as on a soft carpet.

A problem when going barefoot is not the sole of the foot but the top because it hardens not nearly as the sole. So if you have to run speedily through thick vegetation like on some kind of hunts bare feet may not be the best. A sandal is not so much better in this, however.

The advantage of being barefoot is a much better control about your balance, not unimportant in a fight. The Greeks would presumably not have suffered from much rain, so leather shoes with leather soles were not that problem that it would have been in wet circumstances. But even on dry grass or dry smooth rocks leather soles are sometimes fallacious.

Nudity on the other hand gives not so much advantage in a fight so I think the concept of "heroic" or "erotic" nudity is correct.

[Dan Diffendale]

In the center,a black muscled cuirass and in the righ another white.Should we consume it was painted?

numerous silly things about black armor

This is almost certainly a black-and-white drawing of a red-figure vase. There's a limited range of colors you can depict using the red-figure technique (red... and black, and added white). Saying the black must represent black is like saying everybody wore shades of grey in the Wild West because all the movies are in black and white...

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Gioi,interesting pictures!So Connolly doesn't take the first picture for quilted linothorax?If not this then what?

Dan,I did not nessesarily suggest that the cuirass was black in reality,just painted in whatever colour that is darker than the grey-white of iron and the yellow of bronze.It could have been dark red or purple for example.The one think I simly exclude is iron,for the reasons stated above,and what is for certain is that the artist wanted to separate the ordinary stereotype depiction of bronze cuirasses(like the one to the right) from this "strange" darker edition.What else can we say than it's evidence for PAINTED metal armour.Something was said about leather cuirass,but this if it's about to be continued anymore,should go to the appropriate thread.
Khaire
Giannis

PS.Gioi,this is an unfortunate propaganda against Demosthenes lol:

[Kallimachos]

PS.Gioi,this is an unfortunate propaganda against Demosthenes lol:

lol: :twisted:

I dont like him!!!! :x

LOL, somehow I like your new signature :lol:

[Kallimachos]

Johnny's artwork was reason for my question, too.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Propaganda against Gold...hmmm,i dislike both in politics,but in this case I prefer Phill,too :lol:
Sorry for the off topic...
Khairete
Giannis

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Gioi,the off white colour could imply bronze,but in the same painting bronze is depicted clearly yellow(see greaves,shield and most importandly,the end of the shoulder flaps),and the pteruges have the exact same colour.In fact your point about the neck guard could be used by me,too,to suggest stitching,and thus quilting.
I think that Connolly is right to think that both types existed,the stiffer(I supposed glued)one and the quilted.We found evidence that the same artists drew both types together anf this is clear indication that they wanted to depict two different things.
I'd like everyone's opinion in that,and especially Dan's,as he's the most passionate supporter of quilting.
Khairete
Giannis.

P.S. Kurt,I suppose what you ask is many people's opinions,mine is that by that time a hypaspist(respected Macedonian) could have worn an iron cuirass,but it was probably more common(not very common yet,though) among rich cavalrymen,as literary ans archaiological evidence suggests that those were given as presents to kings,were very fine and some of them very heavy for an infanty man.

[Kallimachos]

Thanks for your opinion Giannis

[geala]

The weights of the iron cuirasses mentioned by Plutarch seem rather strange. A cuirass of ~20 kg is beyond my imagination. Bullet proof cuirasses of the 17th c. weighted a lot less.

Does that mean that the Greeks could not make proper thin "normal" iron cuirasses? That the presumably soft iron was effective only when formed to a very thick and therefore heavy plate? The cuirass must have been of 6-7 mm strenght, which is quite incredibly thick.

Maybe not. The emphasis in Plutarchs story is clearly on the weight of the cuirass, not the material. A cuirass which was proof against a catapult bolt must indeed have been an extreme exception. That it is made of iron seems only to be a sidenote. This could be interpreted that iron as a material for cuirasses at least in the time of Demetrios Poliorketes was not that uncommon.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

This cuirass is inspired probably byt the bronze Mars statue that you also posted above.

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks fo info Gioi.

[Sean Manning]

I think that some iron armour was used. A Vergina cuirass or scale-covered linothorax would definitely be historic, but an iron muscle cuirass is speculative. There are some hints of such a thing, but I doubt that the Greeks could produce blooms of iron large enough to make a breastplate in one piece. Then again, almost any reconstruction of the 'linothorax' is speculative (even if the Thebes find pans out, it is only one find)- some are just more speculative than others.

Perhaps Plutarch (or his source) referred to a full armour with helm, cuirass, greaves, and thigh protection? 60 lbs would be quite believable in that case.

[Dan Howard]

If Connolly never brought up the possibility of glue then nobody would ever have considered it. As has been said, there is absolutely nothing to support the theory.

Lamellar was not worn. People are confusing it with scale armour.

I have no problem with iron cuirasses being more widespread than many assume though, as Sean implied, it would take an exceptionally large Iron Age smelter to produce blooms large enough to make one piece breastplates.

[geala]

I believe that Plutarchs source is specially about the cuirass alone. The clue of the story is in my opinion that it was proof against a catapult. A bolt even from the early catapults of the day would have been a terrible penetrator. A typical iron/steel cuirass of the 15th c. weighted about 5 to 6 kg, front and back, with 2 mm thickness on parts not overlapped by others. A bullet proof cuirass would have needed 4-5 mm iron/steel and would have weighted 12-16 kg. I think a catapult bolt proof cuirass might have been even thicker. I believe the penetration performance of a catapult bolt was higher than that of a musket ball from the 16th c. (that is only believe, not backed by tests or calculation). So with a thickness of 6-7 mm iron the weight mentioned by Plutarch and the performance against the catapult are not out of plausibility. A lot of iron needed indeed.

However, when Plutarch speaks about the one talent and especially the two talent armour, not only the breastplate can be refered to. A talent could be of different weight as far as I know, between 26 and 38 kg (26 kg being the Attic measure?), couldn't it. A cuirass alone of 52 kg could not have been the best choice even for the strongest man. Or perhaps the mentioned two-talent-armour wearer really used only that monster cuirass and was killed by a little pebble against the unprotected head? Hard to believe.

Back to topic: I think an iron cuirass could be used for the depiction of a rich hypaspist who wanted to belong to the avantgarde. :wink:

[Theodosius the Great]

I'm very interested in the iron debate here.

Can any of our Greek members get the contact information to the Archeological Museum in Corfu ? I know it's a long shot but I'd like to ask them myself if they know what the armor is composed of.

I tried looking for their information online but could only find a phone number.

(BTW, Wikipedia says the armor is bronze with gold fittings but the website isn't very credible so I'm reserving judgment)

~Theo